AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

humbug · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:30

pugheaven said:
ANY TECH that analyses, predicts sharpens will always have downsides, we all know this, you can't reconstruct what ISN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE, same with upscaling a DVD on a 4k TV. However, all we;'re saying is here is, the end results is similar, however, you shaprne things there will be downsides, but if it's done right i.e. how my 4K projector sharpens my 1080P signal, then if it looks great fine... when things are OVERLY PROCESSED it'll screw the image. Lets not get into the technicalitites when we were just having a simpel conversation around DLSS and RIS, we know theyr'e differing techs that in the end acheive a similar result.

Nvidia claims to analyse games on their servers and encode the image data into the drivers you then download, from that encoded image map Nvidia claim to reconstruct the missing data on the fly.

Yeah. Probably, this will be why DLSS2 will be on a game by game basis.

For @Parsley benefit i don't pretend to know, i'm just repeating what Nvidia said about it, or at least so far as my understanding of it. No one here claims to be the expert we are all just adding our input as best we can to help each other build a picture, you know, like a debate or conversation. Don't be socially awkward hey...

humbug · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:32

FoxEye said:
This winds me up so much, because it's one of the most ridiculous insults ever to be invented.

If you want to say someone is a moron, do so, or call them a **** ******** *** * *** **** if you must.

Every time I hear somebody call someone "an NPC" my eyes roll so hard I get a migraine.

It could only be more ridiculous if the next insult the Facebook/Twitter generation come up with is something like, "He's such a cordless telephone". Or, "That girl is a right non-return valve."

Don't take it personally.

Jimmy Weirdarms · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:35

pugheaven said:
you can't reconstruct what ISN'T THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE

Yes, you can, if you have AI/ML that's good enough at predicting what could/should be there. And if you can get the AI/ML to do it quick enough it becomes faster to do that than building the scene at native res in the first place. That's basically the point of DLSS. It's not a simple sharpening or sampling process, it's using a trained net to figure out what it should probably look like.

Whether you think it's any good is up to you, but yes, you can.

pugheaven · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:35

humbug said:
Nvidia claims to analyse games on their servers and encode the image data into the drivers you then download, from that encoded image map Nvidia claim to reconstruct the missing data on the fly.

Yeah. Probably, this will be why DLSS2 will be on a game by game basis.

For @Parsley benefit i don't pretend to know, i'm just repeating what Nvidia said about it, or at least so far as my understanding of it. No one here claims to be the expert we are all just adding our input as best we can to help each other build a picture, you know, like a debate or conversation. Don't be socially awkward hey...

That news ot me, if thats' the case what happens if you don[t have internet, hahaha am i missing something here lol.

humbug said:
Nvidia claims to analyse games on their servers and encode the image data into the drivers you then download, from that encoded image map Nvidia claim to reconstruct the missing data on the fly.

Yeah. Probably, this will be why DLSS2 will be on a game by game basis.

For @Parsley benefit i don't pretend to know, i'm just repeating what Nvidia said about it, or at least so far as my understanding of it. No one here claims to be the expert we are all just adding our input as best we can to help each other build a picture, you know, like a debate or conversation. Don't be socially awkward hey...

pi didfn't know that i couldn't understand why it's game specific and this would explain it... RIS certainly ain't doing that it's literally just using some sort of algorithms just like a TV does the same thing... so... yeah cool Like we've said, be interesting to see how amd next ietration of RIS pans out. We just wanna play games at mega fps at 4k abnd below,.,.,. it's a simple request lets be honest qand we want all the weye candy for our £600-800 quid lol

KentMan · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:35

FoxEye said:
This winds me up so much, because it's one of the most ridiculous insults ever to be invented.

If you want to say someone is a moron, do so, or call them a **** ******** *** * *** **** if you must.

Every time I hear somebody call someone "an NPC" my eyes roll so hard I get a migraine.

It could only be more ridiculous if the next insult the Facebook/Twitter generation come up with is something like, "He's such a cordless telephone". Or, "That girl is a right non-return valve."

Lol my 12 year old who plays Fortnite with his friends called me a "Default" the other day.... i had no clue what it means, its basically the new version of "Noob"... i wouldnt put much stock in it.

Like the reference to NRV though! dont hear much about those nowadays hahah

i used to work for a water company, used to hear the Engineers talking about PRV's and NRV's a lot

Troezar · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:36

humbug said:
Don't take it personally.

pugheaven · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:40

Jimmy Weirdarms said:
Yes, you can, if you have AI/ML that's good enough at predicting what could be there. And if you can get the AI/ML to do it quick enough it becomes faster to do that than building the scene at native res in the first place. That's basically the point of DLSS. It's not a simple sharpening or sampling process, it's using a trained net to figure out what it should probably look like.

Whether you think it's any good is up to you, but yes, you can.

No you can't, you've contradicted yourself, you have stated "probably look like"... "could be there"... "predicting".. that is NOT what's there so no matter what way you word it until a tech can 100% recreate what wasn't there which they can't 100% then it's guessing... until someone can prove to me that 100% of the time, in 100% of every fram egenerated it is actually what you would've had nativly.

the level of guessing, AI, algortithms it uses fine... they'll get better and better but it will NOT creat what wasn't there... it'll get closer and closer to a point we can't tell the difference which is exactly what DLSS is doing. Maybe we're at that point, but you STILL can't creat something that is not there with 100% accuracy IMHO. You're making a GUESS a WELL EDUCATED GUESS granted.

Anyhow, I' can't be arsed argunging this, christ we were having a convo on image's looking at 4k etc and we end up doing this time and time again ... it's all AI and prediction and that is that imo. Everyone to their own!

Parsley · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:40

humbug said:
Nvidia claims to analyse games on their servers and encode the image data into the drivers you then download, from that encoded image map Nvidia claim to reconstruct the missing data on the fly.

Yeah. Probably, this will be why DLSS2 will be on a game by game basis.

For @Parsley benefit i don't pretend to know, i'm just repeating what Nvidia said about it, or at least so far as my understanding of it. No one here claims to be the expert we are all just adding our input as best we can to help each other build a picture, you know, like a debate or conversation. Don't be socially awkward hey...

Not sure what you're getting at sorry. I don't really mind what people use and I haven't really passed judgement either way. There are plenty of settings I wouldn't run at max or turn on at all if I had the option (My Vega can struggle at my resolution and refresh rate so they wouldn't ever get turned on anyway

) as I simply don't like many of the post processing effects. People like what they like, a lot of it is very subjective!

Nablaoperator · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:42

pugheaven said:
That news ot me, if thats' the case what happens if you don[t have internet, hahaha am i missing something here lol.

An introductory fix for AI: the general linear model

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_linear_model

Edit: wrong link

Jimmy Weirdarms · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:46

pugheaven said:
No you can't, you've contradicted yourself, you have stated "probably look like"... "could be there"... "predicting".. that is NOT what's there so no matter what way you word it until a tech can 100% recreate what wasn't there which they can't 100% then it's guessing... until someone can prove to me that 100% of the time, in 100% of every fram egenerated it is actually what you would've had nativly.

100%? maybe not right now, but in theory a well-trained model could get very close. You're right in that it's not so much recreation at that point as a different rendering technique. But so long as the results are good, I'm not sure what everyone's complaining about.

humbug · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:49

Parsley said:
Not sure what you're getting at sorry. I don't really mind what people use and I haven't really passed judgement either way. There are plenty of settings I wouldn't run at max or turn on at all if I had the option (My Vega can struggle at my resolution and refresh rate so they wouldn't ever get turned on anyway ) as I simply don't like many of the post processing effects. People like what they like, a lot of it is very subjective!

I get that, yes it is subjective and i guess it can be described as a "Post Processing Effect", i'm not a fan of those either, Chromatic Aberration, Film Grain and Motion Blur are the worst offenders of such things.

But to me at least RIS looked good to me when i first tried it, i have never looked back and turning it off now looks to me like smearing Vaseline on my screen.

Parsley · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:55

Add Depth of Field and over the top Bloom effects to that list! Chromatic Aberration is the one I least understand though. It's the byproduct of a dodgy lens!

humbug · 25 Sep 2020 at 15:58

@Parsley I just realized, that was directed at you by mistake, sorry, it was meant for @chris85oc

humbug · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:00

Parsley said:
Add Depth of Field and over the top Bloom effects to that list! Chromatic Aberration is the one I least understand though. It's the byproduct of a dodgy lens!

Those too yes, its mad that game devs should think its a good idea to make their games look like a home movie recorded through a cheap lens, but some do...

Parsley · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:04

humbug said:
@Parsley I just realized, that was directed at you by mistake, sorry, it was meant for @chris85oc

No worries.

pugheaven · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:11

humbug said:
Those too yes, its mad that game devs should think its a good idea to make their games look like a home movie recorded through a cheap lens, but some do...

I rememebr BF4 was it when they went massively overboard with lens flare and it literally blinded you in gamne lol... funky but over the top lol

Sargatanas2511 · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:13

pugheaven said:
I rememebr BF4 was it when they went massively overboard with lens flare and it literally blinded you in gamne lol... funky but over the top lol

CS Source did that when they added HDR lighting. Coming out of the tunnel on Dust 2 was insane and made shooting anyone impossible.

Nablaoperator · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:14

Now how should we read this:
https://twitter.com/AzorFrank/status/1309479671210352643?s=20

ShortWarning · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:17

humbug said:
DLSS Langley has the same effect tho it rebuilds parts of the image that might be lost at the lower resolution, so at 1440P up scaled to 4K you might be missing parts of thin lines on bright backgrounds that you wouldn't be missing at native 4K, like distant power lines against the sky, DLSS will rebuild those lines. RIS wouldn't

There is no reason why AMD couldn't do the same thing, that reconstruction is actually done on Nvidia's servers and encoded into the drivers, AMD could do that too.

Ok so not 0 performance hit but.... meh.

2.5%

RIS on (70%)

RIS Off.

But you're running it at the same res?

I could be wrong but this is how I thought worked:

DLSS:
30fps at 4k native.
60fps at 4k DLSS (with barely any noticeable fidelity difference). (These are made up numbers).

RIS:
30 fps at 4k native
30fps at 4k RIS (just sharper)

RIS won't allow you to run at a higher resolution with higher frames it just makes the existing image look better without harming frame rate.

LePhuronn · 25 Sep 2020 at 16:38

ShortWarning said:
But you're running it at the same res?

I could be wrong but this is how I thought worked:

DLSS:
30fps at 4k native.
60fps at 4k DLSS (with barely any noticeable fidelity difference). (These are made up numbers).

RIS:
30 fps at 4k native
30fps at 4k RIS (just sharper)

RIS won't allow you to run at a higher resolution with higher frames it just makes the existing image look better without harming frame rate.

The DLSS 4K image isn't necessarily at 4K. It could be 1800p to get those frame rates up and then upscaled with the AI. Same applies to RIS: render at 1800p native to boost frames, upscale to 4K and then sharpen it up.