Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed

[JasonM]

Hi Feek,

When I made this I was speaking the truth.

I'm a credible person, i'm 47 years old, i'm a lead software engineer, spent time around audio also.

Go back on on some of my OCUK posts, you will see I post credible things. Normally about Seasonic PSU's, or WD Enterprise Drives, or setting up your speakers, or shares in Tesla, Nvidia or AMD.

I know you don't believe me, however the post I wrote is 100% the truth.

 

[Zefan]

I'd be up for seeing the output of both solutions compared on a scope, it should easily show the differences I beleive?

 

[JasonM]

I'd be up for seeing the output of both solutions compared on a scope, it should easily show the differences I beleive?

Yes it should, however I don't have a scope.

All I can say to anyone read this. If they have spare speaker cable in their house, and especially if their existing speaker cable is on the thin side, then double up your speaker cable, then people can choose for themselves.

And if your not sure, do one speaker only, then A/B by switching the left and right balance.

 

[Rroff]

4m of 17 AWG is around 0.06-0.07 ohms - IIRC most amplifiers tend to be more sensitive to capacitance on the output rather than resistance until you are into 1+ ohms.

As for seeing differences on a scope - albeit I'm not overly knowledgeable as to their operation but when I was building and testing different headphones amplifier designs there was definite differences that I couldn't see manifest using a 20MHz oscilloscope.

 

[LeMson]

why stop at 2, double it to 4!

 

[hughtrimble]

Have you done a blind test? It could well be a placebo. I'd imagine the single run would be adequate for these speakers assuming it's a fairly short distance to the amp.

Yes I did, I ran one speaker with the double wire only for 3 days and switched left and right to compare. To be honest the difference was very much obvious, I noticed from the very first track I played. There is more detail and sound is more relaxed (tweeters less harsh) on the speakers with double cable.

Jason, that isn't a blind test, so do try one at the very least. Preferably double blind, but let's start off with the blind test first and see how you get on.

 

[Rroff]

On the other hand it can only take a fairly small change in resistance to make a noticeable change in some circumstances - for instance the O2 headphone amplifier has two op amps per channel in the buffer stage with their outputs tied together via a 1 ohm resistor - if you mess about reducing the resistance there is a point where suddenly the op amps become destabilised, as they try to fight each other due to tiny DC differences, in certain circumstances with a knock on effect on sound quality - it is feasible even a tiny change of 0.03 ohm is the last straw to push something over the edge.

EDIT: That does definitely show on a scope though hah.

EDIT2: More often these changes to sound are due to distortion even if they are subjectively more pleasing - if the sound is "softer" you've probably managed to destroy your SNR somewhere along the chain.

 

[JasonM]

Jason, that isn't a blind test, so do try one at the very least. Preferably double blind, but let's start off with the blind test first and see how you get on.

Hi hughtrimble, I agree that's not a blind test. However the difference is not that small, I knew the improvement with-in 5 seconds of a track. The next 3 days was just a confirming everything.

Please believe I'm saying 100% the truth. For those 3 days I could not listen to this system, as running the double cable on one side only unbalanced the speakers. When I eventually double cable on both sides, the balance returned, plus it was better then when I first started with the single cable.

 

[JasonM]

On the other hand it can only take a fairly small change in resistance to make a noticeable change in some circumstances

I suspect the main thing that's happened is I've halved the cable resistance. Maybe there is some benefit also from the twin speaker cables, compared to just using a single thicker cable.

 

[Nick1881]

If it sounds better to you then that's all that matters, it's not like you spent hundreds here.

Speaker cable also has different capacitance and inductance so electrically there will be some small changes. I also believe some amps are less fussy with cables, in the past I was sure I heard a difference with different cables, though I never blind tested myself. Last time I tried I couldn't tell any difference, even with fairly expensive silver cable. My ncore amps don't seem to care what I put on the end of them, they just perform flawlessly.

 

[melmac]

Hi Feek,

When I made this I was speaking the truth.

I'm a credible person, i'm 47 years old, i'm a lead software engineer, spent time around audio also.

Go back on on some of my OCUK posts, you will see I post credible things. Normally about Seasonic PSU's, or WD Enterprise Drives, or setting up your speakers, or shares in Tesla, Nvidia or AMD.

I know you don't believe me, however the post I wrote is 100% the truth.

What speakers have you? Are they really high end speakers?

 

[JasonM]

What speakers have you? Are they really high end speakers?

There Yamaha, not expensive speakers.

This system is only my office / computer setup, I have better HiFi gear downstairs.

 

[melmac]

There Yamaha, not expensive speakers.

This system is only my office / computer setup, I have better HiFi gear downstairs.

Oh, ok, then the only thing I can think of is that there was some fault in the first set of speaker wires for you you to notice such a difference in low end speakers.

You see bi-wiring/bi-amping makes no difference, and I mean zero difference in low end speakers. Bi-amping might make a difference when you get to really high end, hard to drive speakers, but, Bi-wiring (what you have done) makes negligible difference to any speaker setup.

The only people I see extolling the virtues of Bi-wiring these days are companies selling speaker cable.

You didn't tell me the exact make of speakers you have. But, since they aren't expensive speakers, I am going to presume that they aren't hard to drive, 100Watt, 4 Ohm speakers? If not, then 17AWG cable is more than good enough. Also, I think you said 4M in length? Again, that's fine for 17AWG.

So it's back to been one of two things, Placebo or Cable fault. You have assured us that it's no Placebo. Therefore it must some kind of fault in your original speaker runs. Maybe there was poor connections, that you didn't realise and when you put in the second run of cable, it actually fixed that problem? Have you noticed any change in Volume? I mean are the volume levels the same as before for the same loudness?

 

[JasonM]

It's not damaged speaker cable, as I my speakers are on stands (I'm sitting in-between), and the damage would have to be identical on each cable. Plus the cables and speakers are relatively new in a clean environment. In addition I've just inspected this cable.

What I never mentioned before. The amp is 8ohm, but my speakers are 6ohm. Running an 8ohm amp into 6ohm speakers it will require more current than 8ohm speakers, so cable resistance has more impact. Doubling the speaker cable has halved the resistance, this would explain the improvement.

I just found this on audioholics

It is really important to use thicker wire for long cable runs, especially when driving a lot of power into low impedance loudspeaker systems.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-wire-gauge

I'm using an 8ohm amp to drive a lower impedance 6ohm speaker. By combining two identical cables, I've doubled the thickness of the cable.

Also realise my speaker cable is only 17AWG (1.04mm2), most good HiFi systems use at least 14AWG (2.08mm2), (my other more expensive HiFi uses 11AWG cable), then factor higher current requirement to drive lower ohm speakers, it's perfectly reasonable to expect the improvement I've found.

I repeat again this is not a small improvement, this was noticed within 5 seconds of playing first track. The difference was such it unbalanced my speakers when I made the change on one speaker only.

 

[melmac]

You still haven't told us the exact model of your speakers? What sensitivity and Power(watts) are they?

 

[JasonM]

You still haven't told us the exact model of your speakers? What sensitivity and Power(watts) are they?

What speakers do you run on your computer?

 

[melmac]

What speakers do you run on your computer?

None, I use headphones, my sound system is in the same room but not connected to the computer. But, why does that matter? How does my computer setup figure out why you are hearing such a difference on your setup?

 

[james.miller]

If you're using conventional loudspeakers and short cable runs, there's unlikely to be much if any difference between the two cables. powerloss would be next to nothing, less than 0.1db between 5ft of 14AWG OFC and 17AWG. If there's that much of an apparent difference then I'm not sure what would cause it. Would love to see what's going on with a scope.

 

[danoliver1]

Just a thought OP but we're your speakers out of phase to start then by changing the cable they are now in phase?

 

[JasonM]

Just a thought OP but we're your speakers out of phase to start then by changing the cable they are now in phase?

No definitely not, it's a good question to ask however.