Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed

[JasonM]

This is a quick post about how I have improved audio by using 2 runs (doubling up) of identical speaker cable to my computer / desk speakers.

Previous I was using some 17AWG OFC to each of my desktop speakers, I was aware this might have been a little to thin, so I investigated the idea of doubling the speaker cable - I already had identical spare cable so trying this would cost me nothing.

Now typically you run a single positive and single negative cable, but I ran 2 positive and 2 negative cables to the speaker from the amp, please don't confuse with bi-wiring as my speakers only have a single pair of binding points.

Incidentally I had the original idea from this thread.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/doubling-a-set-of-speaker-cables

Now what difference has it's made, well the sound is softer (it's more relaxing) and more rounded. I tested this for 3 days just on one channel only, and I was switching left & right channel and there is definite improvement in sound, I have now doubled up cable on other speaker to match.

So if your looking for ideas of how to eek out some extra performance on the cheap, this could be another one in your armoury.

The cable I'm using is some discontinued Maplins cable I purchased in their closing down sale a few years ago, so not expensive cable.

Here is some photos, the speaker running single cable.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=ZFVKVk9oSHN4Z1F3SjVjR3NjNVMzbkt3bm9obF9n

Then speaker with double cable run

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=bUVwVG1wZVoyeHBtenNpSC15OUZSeWtYa2tfRkd3

 

[JasonM]

Have you done a blind test? It could well be a placebo. I'd imagine the single run would be adequate for these speakers assuming it's a fairly short distance to the amp.

Yes I did, I ran one speaker with the double wire only for 3 days and switched left and right to compare. To be honest the difference was very much obvious, I noticed from the very first track I played. There is more detail and sound is more relaxed (tweeters less harsh) on the speakers with double cable.

 

[JasonM]

What does this actually mean?

Less harsh, more detail in the sound.

 

[JasonM]

Unless it was a few strands of corroded cable the first time then it is :

You don't understand, by doubling the cables I have halved the resistance.

Also I have created a very basic ribbon cable, as one cable pair is positive, and the other is negative. PS Audio use multi speaker cables on their systems, if there was zero benefit PS Audio would not do this.

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/cables-speaker-cable-design-part-1/

I already had this copper cable spare in my house, i wanted to try before buying more.

 

[JasonM]

How long is the cable? If you can measure any resistance on an average length of speaker cable, I'll be utterly gobsmacked. There will be some but it'll be infinitesimally small.

About 4 meters for each speaker.

Just take my word for it that there was a difference, not a small difference either

I'm not aware if PS Audio sell cables, but they talk about them in their videos and use them on the systems they sell.

 

[JasonM]

It's called bi-wiring https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-wiring and is the usual audiophile snake oil

As I explained in my opening post this is not bi-wiring, these speakers only have single terminals.

If you don't believe me then fine, but I can assure you this has made quite a difference.

 

[JasonM]

It's still bi-wiring regardless of whether there are single or double terminals.

Fine don't believe me, but this has improved the sound from my speakers / system.

 

[JasonM]

You don't understand audio.

Have you ever tried this, probably not.
Were you standing in my room when I A/B'ed this no

Until you try this don't comment.

 

[JasonM]

Hi Feek,

When I made this I was speaking the truth.

I'm a credible person, i'm 47 years old, i'm a lead software engineer, spent time around audio also.

Go back on on some of my OCUK posts, you will see I post credible things. Normally about Seasonic PSU's, or WD Enterprise Drives, or setting up your speakers, or shares in Tesla, Nvidia or AMD.

I know you don't believe me, however the post I wrote is 100% the truth.

 

[JasonM]

I'd be up for seeing the output of both solutions compared on a scope, it should easily show the differences I beleive?

Yes it should, however I don't have a scope.

All I can say to anyone read this. If they have spare speaker cable in their house, and especially if their existing speaker cable is on the thin side, then double up your speaker cable, then people can choose for themselves.

And if your not sure, do one speaker only, then A/B by switching the left and right balance.

 

[JasonM]

Jason, that isn't a blind test, so do try one at the very least. Preferably double blind, but let's start off with the blind test first and see how you get on.

Hi hughtrimble, I agree that's not a blind test. However the difference is not that small, I knew the improvement with-in 5 seconds of a track. The next 3 days was just a confirming everything.

Please believe I'm saying 100% the truth. For those 3 days I could not listen to this system, as running the double cable on one side only unbalanced the speakers. When I eventually double cable on both sides, the balance returned, plus it was better then when I first started with the single cable.

 

[JasonM]

On the other hand it can only take a fairly small change in resistance to make a noticeable change in some circumstances

I suspect the main thing that's happened is I've halved the cable resistance. Maybe there is some benefit also from the twin speaker cables, compared to just using a single thicker cable.

 

[JasonM]

What speakers have you? Are they really high end speakers?

There Yamaha, not expensive speakers.

This system is only my office / computer setup, I have better HiFi gear downstairs.

 

[JasonM]

It's not damaged speaker cable, as I my speakers are on stands (I'm sitting in-between), and the damage would have to be identical on each cable. Plus the cables and speakers are relatively new in a clean environment. In addition I've just inspected this cable.

What I never mentioned before. The amp is 8ohm, but my speakers are 6ohm. Running an 8ohm amp into 6ohm speakers it will require more current than 8ohm speakers, so cable resistance has more impact. Doubling the speaker cable has halved the resistance, this would explain the improvement.

I just found this on audioholics

It is really important to use thicker wire for long cable runs, especially when driving a lot of power into low impedance loudspeaker systems.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-wire-gauge

I'm using an 8ohm amp to drive a lower impedance 6ohm speaker. By combining two identical cables, I've doubled the thickness of the cable.

Also realise my speaker cable is only 17AWG (1.04mm2), most good HiFi systems use at least 14AWG (2.08mm2), (my other more expensive HiFi uses 11AWG cable), then factor higher current requirement to drive lower ohm speakers, it's perfectly reasonable to expect the improvement I've found.

I repeat again this is not a small improvement, this was noticed within 5 seconds of playing first track. The difference was such it unbalanced my speakers when I made the change on one speaker only.

 

[JasonM]

You still haven't told us the exact model of your speakers? What sensitivity and Power(watts) are they?

What speakers do you run on your computer?

 

[JasonM]

Just a thought OP but we're your speakers out of phase to start then by changing the cable they are now in phase?

No definitely not, it's a good question to ask however.

 

[JasonM]

In my original post I linked another audio forum thread where the discussion was on running double cables. I'll just copy and paste some text from that thread:

Every one of these quotes is from a separate person.

I started with a single run of the RSA P!!!'s and then added a second set ... the difference wasn't night and day ... more like dusk to dawn ... but all positive with no down side
the overall presentation was more relaxed and natural sounding with more swing and sway (PRAT)
I could tell immediately that there was an improvement, but was hard put to put my finger on what improved

Doubling up on the wire from amp to speaker made a huge improvement on my system. Perhaps, because the speakers are 4 ohm, but it sounded dramatically better. I was quite certain I wouldn't hear anything, but it was the opposite. TRY IT. Amazing.

I use a double run of Morrow Audio newer SP3's and wont go back to regular bi-wire method in a single cable!

However, I also do advocate trying double/parallel speaker cables for speakers having only one set of posts. Going with heavier AWG has almost always resulted in a preferred sound quality.

Then I recalled that I could double the speaker cables, and doing so brought more definition as well as more relaxed treble

from https://www.dagogo.com/daedalus-aud...er-and-bass-optimization-woofer-bow-review/3/

And here is an explanation again from the audioon.com link why using double speaker cables would benefit.

I note that he states in the review that his "guess is that the primary benefit is in the increased total gauge, a variable I believe is primary to the attainment of superior sound. Very simply put, the more metal, the more musical nuance and grace." The halving of resistance that will result from using two identical cables in parallel, relative to the resistance of each cable, could also be accomplished by using a single cable three gauge sizes larger. However the doubled pair of cables will also reduce inductance by a factor of two, while using a single cable that is three gauge sizes larger and is otherwise similar in design will not come close to doing that.

 

[JasonM]

So they are now "over cabled", have too much capacitance and are now losing upper end frequencies?

I already considered this when I set the cables up

One of my dual cables is running positive, the other dual cable is negative.

As I understand capacitance only occurs when negative and positive are next to each other, however because I've put positive on one pair, and negative on another pair, there should be less capacitance then running a standard twin speaker cable.

I have cable tied to cables together in places, however I originally sound tested with the cables loose (the negative and positive was maybe inches apart in places), and when I cable tied the cables together it made no difference.

The sound does have a more relaxed treble, but there is more detail also.

 

[JasonM]

Hi robj20,

Because I've tried this I've learnt something.

By dismissing this and not trying, you learn nothing.

 

[JasonM]

Even then, it’s not a peer reviewed setup and it won’t have been tested by anyone other than you.

So all the people who positioned their speakers, choose a DAC, choose a turntable, or listened to some different speakers - none of this mattered as it was not tested by anyone else.

What your saying, is if someone is in a room by themselves, their not able to set their own gear up.