Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed

In my original post I linked another audio forum thread where the discussion was on running double cables. I'll just copy and paste some text from that thread:

Every one of these quotes is from a separate person.

I started with a single run of the RSA P!!!'s and then added a second set ... the difference wasn't night and day ... more like dusk to dawn ... but all positive with no down side
the overall presentation was more relaxed and natural sounding with more swing and sway (PRAT)
I could tell immediately that there was an improvement, but was hard put to put my finger on what improved

Doubling up on the wire from amp to speaker made a huge improvement on my system. Perhaps, because the speakers are 4 ohm, but it sounded dramatically better. I was quite certain I wouldn't hear anything, but it was the opposite. TRY IT. :) Amazing.

I use a double run of Morrow Audio newer SP3's and wont go back to regular bi-wire method in a single cable!

However, I also do advocate trying double/parallel speaker cables for speakers having only one set of posts. Going with heavier AWG has almost always resulted in a preferred sound quality.

Then I recalled that I could double the speaker cables, and doing so brought more definition as well as more relaxed treble

from https://www.dagogo.com/daedalus-aud...er-and-bass-optimization-woofer-bow-review/3/

And here is an explanation again from the audioon.com link why using double speaker cables would benefit.

I note that he states in the review that his "guess is that the primary benefit is in the increased total gauge, a variable I believe is primary to the attainment of superior sound. Very simply put, the more metal, the more musical nuance and grace." The halving of resistance that will result from using two identical cables in parallel, relative to the resistance of each cable, could also be accomplished by using a single cable three gauge sizes larger. However the doubled pair of cables will also reduce inductance by a factor of two, while using a single cable that is three gauge sizes larger and is otherwise similar in design will not come close to doing that.





 
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JasonM said:
Now what difference has it's made, well the sound is softer (it's more relaxing) and more rounded.
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So they are now "over cabled", have too much capacitance and are now losing upper end frequencies?

https://avgadgets.com/speaker-wire-cable-gauge/

Capacitance and Speaker Cable Gauge
You also can’t answer the question What is speaker cable gauge without addressing this thing called capacitance. Capacitance is always going to be an issue in speaker wires because they are essentially two parallel cables running next to each other—the very petri dish for capacitance. Over a cable’s run, the capacitance of the cable also factors into the attenuation of high-frequency response. The real issue with capacitance is that fancier cables, particularly those that are extra thick (lower gauge) have more of it. That means that while they sport less resistance, they can actually have significant frequency loss at the upper end. (Coincidentally, this often creates a “warmer” or “laid back” sound that’s often preferred—it’s, unfortunately, just not accurate.)
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Armageus said:
So they are now "over cabled", have too much capacitance and are now losing upper end frequencies?
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I already considered this when I set the cables up

One of my dual cables is running positive, the other dual cable is negative.

As I understand capacitance only occurs when negative and positive are next to each other, however because I've put positive on one pair, and negative on another pair, there should be less capacitance then running a standard twin speaker cable.

I have cable tied to cables together in places, however I originally sound tested with the cables loose (the negative and positive was maybe inches apart in places), and when I cable tied the cables together it made no difference.

The sound does have a more relaxed treble, but there is more detail also.
 
All that from a bit of copper wire, amazing. You should add another run "triple wired" it's bound to sound even better.

Also try the wire the other way around I hear the sound flows better one way Vs the other.
 
JasonM said:
I know you don't believe me, however the post I wrote is 100% the truth.
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You’re almost definitely speaking the truth, but it’s your truth.

JasonM said:
Yes I did, I ran one speaker with the double wire only for 3 days and switched left and right to compare. To be honest the difference was very much obvious, I noticed from the very first track I played. There is more detail and sound is more relaxed (tweeters less harsh) on the speakers with double cable.
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This is not a blind test - you knowingly switched the setup.



For a sufficient experiment, you’d need:

  • Blind listening - someone else switches the setup, ideally while you’re out of the room.
  • Repeatable - you need to be able to deduce which setup is which more than 50% of the time, the closer to 100% the better.
  • A control - you need to have a normal setup where you can listen to the speakers with standard wiring to give you your baseline.

Even then, it’s not a peer reviewed setup and it won’t have been tested by anyone other than you.


Further to the above, it does sound as though (excuse the pun) you’re encountering placebo. You hear what you expected to hear.


Don’t underestimate the power of a placebo.

https://youtu.be/QDCcuCHOIyY



I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that you’re not providing sufficient evidence to counter my (admittedly limited) understanding of electronics.


Your argument suggests that you could get the same effect with a speaker wire twice the cross sectional area, given the same length and resistivity of the cable no?
 
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JasonM said:
As I understand capacitance only occurs when negative and positive are next to each other, however because I've put positive on one pair, and negative on another pair, there should be less capacitance then running a standard twin speaker cable.
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It does sound like you will have lowered the capacitance, though if you can hear the difference that makes then I have to wonder if you need a better amplifier driving the speakers.

But hey, speakers are a very personal thing. I bi-wire my living room speakers just because I think the shiny OFC cable looks nice. If I put the shorting links on the speakers and single wire them they sound just the same to me, but I like the look :)
 
MrRockliffe said:
Even then, it’s not a peer reviewed setup and it won’t have been tested by anyone other than you.
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So all the people who positioned their speakers, choose a DAC, choose a turntable, or listened to some different speakers - none of this mattered as it was not tested by anyone else.

What your saying, is if someone is in a room by themselves, their not able to set their own gear up.
 
JasonM said:
What your saying, is if someone is in a room by themselves, their not able to set their own gear up.
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You can't get someone else's opinion, their tastes will be different and therefore their experience will be different.

What you can do is get another person to swap between two setups, ask you which you prefer, without you knowing which one you are listening to. If you want to claim it is better, then you want to do this at a minimum. Honestly, don't take that personally, this is a market full of nonsense like directional ethernet cables and general placebo effects, so there has to be some standard of testing for people to take notice.
 
JasonM said:
So all the people who positioned their speakers, choose a DAC, choose a turntable, or listened to some different speakers - none of this mattered as it was not tested by anyone else.

What your saying, is if someone is in a room by themselves, their not able to set their own gear up.
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:cry:
 
NOP said:
You can't get someone else's opinion, their tastes will be different and therefore their experience will be different.

What you can do is get another person to swap between two setups, ask you which you prefer, without you knowing which one you are listening to. If you want to claim it is better, then you want to do this at a minimum. Honestly, don't take that personally, this is a market full of nonsense like directional ethernet cables and general placebo effects, so there has to be some standard of testing for people to take notice.
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Ok then, if this is the case what the point of ever having any audio forum.

For example if someone asks what sound card, or speakers to buy what is the point of any of it.
 
JasonM said:
So all the people who positioned their speakers, choose a DAC, choose a turntable, or listened to some different speakers - none of this mattered as it was not tested by anyone else.

What your saying, is if someone is in a room by themselves, their not able to set their own gear up.
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That’s not what I’ve said at all :)

When setting up speakers, you’re dealing with variances of longitudinal waves and how they interact with a room.

You’re talking about how doubling up on cabling, effectively increasing the cross sectional area by 2 and halving the resistance, improves the sound by “making it more rounded”.
 
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Does that mean on one speaker you have an extra run of speaker cable, both cores twisted together and connected just to the positive side at each end and on the other speaker you have an extra run of speaker cable, both cores twisted together and connected just to the negative side at each end?
 
You should try those £100 kettle leads for your amp, they make it sound better as well.
Granted I only deal with video at work not audio but I just can't see how this can make it sound better.
 
Feek said:
Does that mean on one speaker you have an extra run of speaker cable, both cores twisted together and connected just to the positive side at each end and on the other speaker you have an extra run of speaker cable, both cores twisted together and connected just to the negative side at each end?
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There is no extra runs of cables.

Look at the picture i posted in last post.

Those cables follow down to the amp.

One dual cable - both ends are twisted together - that cable becomes negative, and connects to negative on the amp.

The other dual cable - both ends are twisted together - that cable becomes positive, and connects to positive on the amp.

Then everything repeats again for the other speaker.

Would you like me to make a Visio diagram?
 
JasonM said:
There is no extra runs of cables.
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There clearly is an extra run of cable, if there wasn't, we wouldn't be having this discussion! You originally had one run of cable and now you have two :p

JasonM said:
One dual cable - both ends are twisted together - that cable becomes negative, and connects to negative on the amp.

The other dual cable - both ends are twisted together - that cable becomes positive, and connects to positive on the amp.
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This is what I expected and makes perfect sense, your comments about one being positive and one being negative weren't clear so thanks for explaining.
 
Feek said:
This is what I expected and makes perfect sense, your comments about one being positive and one being negative weren't clear so thanks for explaining.
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I was just about to open Visio up and make a diagram, but now I don't have to great :-)
 
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