Doubling up speaker cable, improvement I've noticed

[JasonM]

You should try those £100 kettle leads for your amp, they make it sound better as well.
Granted I only deal with video at work not audio but I just can't see how this can make it sound better.

There is a reason I posted this in the PC Sound section, and not the HiFi section. This system on my computer is not expensive. These copper cables were £5 for 10 meters each on a Maplins closing down sale.

For example the Edifier speaker, all the ones I've seen come with aluminium speaker cable, those Edifier speakers can be upgraded by changing to OFC cable. So there is some food for thought, how many people have laughed at this thread, but have their speakers connected on aluminium..

Often I will see people with speakers on their desk, not even positioned, and I will tell them to get some cheap stands, or I might tell them to buy isolation foam. By making this post I was honestly trying to help people.

 

[NOP]

Ok then, if this is the case what the point of ever having any audio forum.

For example if someone asks what sound card, or speakers to buy what is the point of any of it.

Honestly I think this is a great use, and I think some people are being overly harsh.

You have halved the resistance, and lowered the capacitance. If it cost you nothing, then that's cheaper than buying new cable so a nice upgrade. I don't see any way this could have made things worse It would be interesting to know if swapping to some decently thick speaker cable (or even just 30A ring main cable) sounds as good, though again some people will want to hear testing methodology rather than use of words like "rounded".

But if someone asks what speakers to get, other than steering people away from complete clunkers you quickly get to a point where you have to go listen to them and see if you like them. Which is why old-school hifi shops have auditioning rooms.

 

[robj20]

There is a reason I posted this in the PC Sound section, and not the HiFi section. This system on my computer is not expensive. These copper cables were £5 for 10 meters each on a Maplins closing down sale.

For example the Edifier speaker, all the ones I've seen come with aluminium speaker cable, those Edifier speakers can be upgraded by changing to OFC cable. So there is some food for thought, how many people have laughed at this thread, but have their speakers connected on aluminium..

Often I will see people with speakers on their desk, not even positioned, and I will tell them to get some cheap stands, or I might tell them to buy isolation foam. By making this post I was honestly trying to help people.

You see this kind of shows your lack of understanding as well, nothing wrong with CCA as long as it's sized correctly, the downside with it is for the same guage it has a higher resistance, the benefit is its cheaper.
You can also potentially increase resistance even further if you damage the copper coating at the termination area.

Also I only just realised your talking about Edifier speakers and while they're are reasonable for the price, I am absolutely amazed you can hear any difference by simply wiring them differently. I bet you could wire them up with wet string and they'd sound the same.

 

[JasonM]

You see this kind of shows your lack of understanding as well, nothing wrong with CCA as long as it's sized correctly, the downside with it is for the same guage it has a higher resistance, the benefit is its cheaper.
You can also potentially increase resistance even further if you damage the copper coating at the termination area.

Also I only just realised your talking about Edifier speakers and while they're are reasonable for the price, I am absolutely amazed you can hear any difference by simply wiring them differently. I bet you could wire them up with wet string and they'd sound the same.

I know exactly what aluminium cable is like as have used it on more expensive audio systems, in general it needs to be double thickness to begin to match OFC.

Edifier speakers are good value for the money, in their price range they have reasonable quality amps, and the speakers have good design for the money, I'm taking relative to a speaker / amp setup in the £100 - £200 range.

The thin cable in this picture is from an Edifier, see the copper cable next to it. The Edifiers are definitely good enough to get an improvement by switching that thin aluminium cable out.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...YtW_bZhMBQeuC7cezuV5=w1190-h892-no?authuser=0

 

[melmac]

I know exactly what aluminium cable is like as have used it on more expensive audio systems, in general it needs to be double thickness to begin to match OFC.

Edifier speakers are good value for the money, in their price range they have reasonable quality amps, and the speakers have good design for the money, I'm taking relative to a speaker / amp setup in the £100 - £200 range.

The thin cable in this picture is from an Edifier, see the copper cable next to it. The Edifiers are definitely good enough to get an improvement by switching that thin aluminium cable out.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...YtW_bZhMBQeuC7cezuV5=w1190-h892-no?authuser=0

No, just no. You could run the most expensive, super hifi cables on a set of Edifiers and you wouldn't hear any difference.

If the original cables aren't faulty, have been wired correctly and good enough for the speakers to begin with, you won't get any improvement out of Bi-wiring.

People replying on this thread, don't doubt that you are hearing a difference, but, they know that the difference you are hearing isn't from Bi-wiring. And they are just trying to get to the bottom of why. I wanted to know the model of your speakers so I could see their sensitivity and wattage, but, for some reason you won't tell us the model of the speakers you are using.

Also, just curious, but, any particular reason why you have your speakers upside down?

 

[JasonM]

No, just no. You could run the most expensive, super hifi cables on a set of Edifiers and you wouldn't hear any difference.

Well that's plane wrong, replacing that thin aluminium cable (in my photo), to even similar size OFC cable you most definitely would get an improvement. Again the Edifiers are reasonable quality given their price point.

Your the only person here using the term 'expensive cables', this thread is about good quality copper cables that can be purchased relativity cheap.

The speakers have been raised up from the desk - this reduces resonance (with the desk) and improves sound quality.

To reposition the tweeter closer to ear level, the speaker is then turned upside down.

People replying on this thread, don't doubt that you are hearing a difference, but, they know that the difference you are hearing isn't from Bi-wiring. And they are just trying to get to the bottom of why.

It's already been answered, it's lower resistance from running the two cables in parallel, then lower capacitance possibly helping also.

 

[melmac]

Well that's plane wrong, replacing that thin aluminium cable (in my photo), to even similar size OFC cable you most definitely would get an improvement. Again the Edifiers are reasonable quality given their price point.

Your the only person here using the term 'expensive cables', this thread is about good quality copper cables that can be purchased relativity cheap.

The speakers have been raised up from the desk - this reduces resonance (with the desk) and improves sound quality.

To reposition the tweeter closer to ear level, the speaker is then turned upside down.

And i'll tell you why I've not told you the model of these speakers. I'm calling you out here. About 18 months ago there was HiFi thread, and you started posting on the thread near the end (just as your doing here), you asked me what my speakers were (this is my main HiFi), then you used the specs of my speakers to discredit what I was saying. If I give you specs you'll start saying there not sensitive enough to notice a cable change, or some nonsense like this, so i'm not going down this path, just know there pretty entry level Yamaha bookshelf speakers.

Holy crap, you mean you genuinely believe that you would hear a difference on a pair of Edifiers if you replaced the supplied cable with something else?

HHAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHA


And, no, I was asking the specs of your Speakers to find out if they were high wattage or low sensitivity that would make them too hard to drive for the 17awg cable that you had.

 

[JasonM]

Holy crap, you mean you genuinely believe that you would hear a difference on a pair of Edifiers if you replaced the supplied cable with something else?

HHAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHA

I don't believe it, I know it as I've done it.

Edifiers speakers are reasonable quality, most are rated at at least 30W RMS between 6-8ohm.

See again picture I posted of thin Edifier supplied aluminium cable.

I notice you had no response when I said I raised my speakers up to reduce resonance then rotated speaker to put tweeter better in line. Also no one had a response once they discovered I'll actually lowered capacitance given the way I wired the speakers.

Like about 70% people in this thread you can't possibly accept that my original post could be correct, that it very much was correct. So your trying to find things to discredit me with.

And the reason I don't always use the correct words, for example I use 'more rounded' plus edit often, is because i'm dyslexic, but I did manage a software engineering degree.

 

[NOP]

If the original cables aren't faulty, have been wired correctly and good enough for the speakers to begin with, you won't get any improvement out of Bi-wiring.

I'm being pedantic here I know, but he isn't bi-wiring. He's just doubling up the cable to a single set of connecting posts. Incorrect use of terminology isn't helping your argument.

I have no experience of Edifer, in what way are they so bad?

 

[Gray2233]

I'm a credible person, i'm 47 years old, i'm a lead software engineer, spent time around audio also.

Alright, lets examine that claim:

PS Audio use multi speaker cables on their systems, if there was zero benefit PS Audio would not do this.

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/cables-speaker-cable-design-part-1/

Here we have you using a company which sells audio products as a source of credibility, a company which sells the likes of "USB Audio Cables" and other such snake oil, often for extortionate amounts of money.

In my original post I linked another audio forum thread where the discussion was on running double cables. I'll just copy and paste some text from that thread:

Every one of these quotes is from a separate person.

I started with a single run of the RSA P!!!'s and then added a second set ... the difference wasn't night and day ... more like dusk to dawn ... but all positive with no down side
the overall presentation was more relaxed and natural sounding with more swing and sway (PRAT)
I could tell immediately that there was an improvement, but was hard put to put my finger on what improved

Doubling up on the wire from amp to speaker made a huge improvement on my system. Perhaps, because the speakers are 4 ohm, but it sounded dramatically better. I was quite certain I wouldn't hear anything, but it was the opposite. TRY IT. Amazing.

I use a double run of Morrow Audio newer SP3's and wont go back to regular bi-wire method in a single cable!

However, I also do advocate trying double/parallel speaker cables for speakers having only one set of posts. Going with heavier AWG has almost always resulted in a preferred sound quality.

Then I recalled that I could double the speaker cables, and doing so brought more definition as well as more relaxed treble

from https://www.dagogo.com/daedalus-aud...er-and-bass-optimization-woofer-bow-review/3/

And here is an explanation again from the audioon.com link why using double speaker cables would benefit.

I note that he states in the review that his "guess is that the primary benefit is in the increased total gauge, a variable I believe is primary to the attainment of superior sound. Very simply put, the more metal, the more musical nuance and grace." The halving of resistance that will result from using two identical cables in parallel, relative to the resistance of each cable, could also be accomplished by using a single cable three gauge sizes larger. However the doubled pair of cables will also reduce inductance by a factor of two, while using a single cable that is three gauge sizes larger and is otherwise similar in design will not come close to doing that.

Here we have you linking random anecdotal evidence, as others have mentioned we need proper blind testing to even begin to see if what you're suggesting is anything other than placebo.

Ok then, if this is the case what the point of ever having any audio forum.

For example if someone asks what sound card, or speakers to buy what is the point of any of it.

Here you're clearly mixing extremes, things like speakers, sound cards, dacs, they all offer appreciable and easily provable differences/benefits.

You're also oddly and highly reticent to share the equipment you're using on the basis people will use it to discredit you.

While you might be credible in some areas, you're absolutely not when it comes to consumer audio, extremely few people genuinely are. Many people fall into the audio trap and think that by doing special things with wires or spending money to ridiculous amounts on ridiculous things that they're reaching some sort of upper echelon of sound. Funnily enough I most often see this happening with middle aged to older men, which I suppose makes sense since they tend to have a lot more disposable income and are more likely than women to buy these sorts of things. The problem is, most men suffer a pretty heavy decline (even compared to women) in their hearing as they age, but especially so from around their mid 40's onward.

Does that mean you're not hearing a difference? Not necessarily, you might be hearing what you perceive to be an improvement. Or it could just flat out be placebo. We don't know, and it wouldn't make sense for us to just take your word for it. Personally speaking I've been around people who have tested the sort of thing you're describing on mid-range and entry level stereo speakers and I couldn't hear a difference whatsoever.

As mentioned, the only way to see if there really is a difference is proper testing.

I'm being pedantic here I know, but he isn't bi-wiring. He's just doubling up the cable to a single set of connecting posts. Incorrect use of terminology isn't helping your argument.

I have no experience of Edifer, in what way are they so bad?

To quote @Armageus from earlier in the thread:

It's still bi-wiring regardless of whether there are single or double terminals.

As for the Edifier equipment in question, they make a range of active speakers at mostly entry level price points and are usually decent quality. That doesn't mean you're going to see an improvement by switching out the stock wiring.

 

[JasonM]

As mentioned, the only way to see if there really is a difference is proper testing.

Your playing the man and not the ball.

You talk about double blind testing, however this is your rules. What your doing is moving the goal posts to something you know I can't possibly prove. You don't work for this government in stats do you?

I've been setting up audio for years, I never needed a double blind test to tell me what I found better. And my hearing is fine.

The quotes I copied, one of them is a professional HiFi tester, so your going to discredit all those people, your not even at least curious that they could be correct?

The placebo word is a 'cheap' way to discredit people you don't agree with, it's used when you don't have any proper counter argument and it cheapens you for using it.

While you might be credible in some areas, you're absolutely not when it comes to consumer audio,

Little arrogant of you. So according to your standard, I'm not creditable to have a view on my own audio? I'm curious are all the people who post in the audio / HiFi sections are they not credible also?

Many people fall into the audio trap and think that by doing special things with wires or spending money to ridiculous amounts on ridiculous things that they're reaching some sort of upper echelon of sound. Funnily enough I most often see this happening with middle aged to older men, which I suppose makes sense since they tend to have a lot more disposable income

Ridiculous amounts? My post is about some cheap copper cable.

 

[NOP]

To quote @Armageus from earlier in the thread:

It's still bi-wiring regardless of whether there are single or double terminals.

Clearly you never had to sit through all the sales pitch I was put through back in the day

I'm not saying it works, but Bi wiring gives you two distinct current loops, one for the high and one for the low pass filters in the speakers. So you can have single terminals at the amp end, but the speaker end needs two lots of binding posts. My floor standing Missions were from around 1990 when this was all the rage and they came with little shorting cables that ties the posts together for single cable use because you *have* to drive both lots of posts. That makes sense, because part of the trend was to use a bi-amp setup for your bi-wiring, so they can sell you two power amp blocks.

The central premise of why you bi-wire is dodgy enough, but if the cables are connected at both ends then that concept of separate signal paths evaporates.

As for the Edifier equipment in question, they make a range of active speakers at mostly entry level price points and are usually decent quality. That doesn't mean you're going to see an improvement by switching out the stock wiring.

Now I'm confused. Unless this is like my Creative speaker set on my PC where the active bit is in a subwoofer (makes games go boom! ) with some wires into the speakers on the desktop?

 

[Armageus]

I've been setting up audio for years, I never needed a double blind test to tell me what I found better. And my hearing is fine.

The placebo word is a 'cheap' way to discredit people you don't agree with, it's used when you don't have any proper counter argument and it cheapens you for using it.

Placebo is a thing, whether you want to believe it or not - the whole reason double blind tests are needed is to prevent placebo response whereby you subconciously want it to be better because you've made a change. Whether that change is down to spending 50p or £50k doesn't really matter - you still have some investment in it (even if it's only "time" in the case of your double-wire experiment)

 

[Gray2233]

snip.

You're making a claim and asking us to believe you, you brought this to a forum of debate. If you hear a difference you find enjoyable why do you care what anyone on here thinks?

As for your credibility in consumer audio? No, you're not credible and as I said earlier very few people actually are. You attempted to sell yourself as generally credible when it comes to audio as evidence you were correct, which in of itself is arrogance on your behalf and wildly hypocritical of you to try and push that onto me. I don't find your sources credible either, although I note you had no response for the company blatantly selling snake-oil that I mentioned earlier. It's as though you can't fathom that people selling products might be less than honest in order to make more money, and there's few industries more exploitative than consumer audio.

I suggest you go over my post again and attempt to comprehend it a little better.

PS:

credible

adjective

1. able to be believed; convincing.
   
   • capable of persuading people that something will happen or be successful.

I'm sure you believe yourself, but that's hardly relevant here is it?

Now I'm confused. Unless this is like my Creative speaker set on my PC where the active bit is in a subwoofer (makes games go boom! ) with some wires into the speakers on the desktop?

Similar, an active set of speakers is simply where the amp is built in, such as the following:

My basket at Overclockers UK:

• 1 x Edifier R1700BT 2.0 Studio Speaker System - Maple= £129.95

Total: £140.45 (includes shipping: £10.50)
​

 

[JasonM]

Grey2233,

You have two cable choices.

Cable 1: It has a resistance value, and a capacitance value.

Cable 2: It has half the resistance of cable 1, and a lower capacitance than cable 1.

It's established lower resistance and lower capacitance are both better for improving sound.

When I doubled the cable up, I went from Cable 1 to Cable 2,

Given the science is totally on my side, why do you still disagree with me?

 

[HippoTank]

Similar to how people make coffee, even if it is "wrong" but the OP likes the sound, it's all good lol. That won't stop people arguing whether its right or wrong until the cows come home though

 

[AtaRo]

Grey2233,

You have two cable choices.

Cable 1: It has a resistance value, and a capacitance value.

Cable 2: It has half the resistance of cable 1, and a lower capacitance than cable 1.

It's established lower resistance and lower capacitance are both better for improving sound.

When I doubled the cable up, I went from Cable 1 to Cable 2,

Given the science is totally on my side, why do you still disagree with me?

Cable 2 has higher capacitance than cable 1.

Runnning 2 cable in parallel lower its resistance but increases its capacitance not lower it.

 

[JasonM]

Cable 2 has higher capacitance than cable 1.

Runnning 2 cable in parallel lower its resistance but increases its capacitance not lower it.

No it's lower.

The 2 positive cables are on their own twin shotgun cable bunch.

The 2 negative cables are on their own twin shotgun cable bunch.

Those 2 bunches of cables are physically sperate, certainly more separate then a normal molded speaker cable pair, there for lower capacitance.

 

[AtaRo]

No it's lower.

The 2 positive cables are on their own twin shotgun cable bunch.

The 2 negative cables are on their own twin shotgun cable bunch.

Those 2 bunches of cables are physically sperate, certainly more separate then a normal molded speaker cable pair, there for lower capacitance.

You just double the size/surface area each side of the cable and that increases the capacitance of the cable not lower it.

 

[JasonM]

You just double the size/surface area each side of the cable and that increases the capacitance of the cable not lower it.

Wrong.

Capacitance can be viewed as an intimate ongoing relationship between the conductor and the ground plane.

https://www.hca.hitachi-cable.com/products/medical/faq/answers/whats-is-capacitance.php

My conductors and ground plane - this case my positive and negative wires - are separated more than a regular moulded speaker cable pair, so less capacitance.

If each cable bunch had it's own positive and negative wires you would be correct, however I've not done this.