Octopus session 3, 8 points like the last 2 up to 24 points now worth 3p
Nice!
Watcha gonna spend it on?
Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)
- Thread starter DXP55
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Nice!
Watcha gonna spend it on?
You said ASHP is a half measure and proposed GSHP as the alternative, so I’m wondering how you expect that to be feasible for the average newbuild and why that is the house builders responsibility to consider given its a large extra cost compared to the house price or a ASHP? Also how that initial large extra cost is worth the small efficiency gains for the average UK climate? I don't think you even get back the extra install costs of bored GSHP with lower running costs over a 20 year period even at current electric prices. eg if you take a heating/hot water use of 12,000kWh and assume a SCOP of 300% for ASHP, even if GSHP gave you 25% better SCOP performance at current prices the GSHP would save £330 a year, so over 20 years thats £6600.
Somehow I managed 274pts even though I did nothing different and was away almost whole.7 days prior. Add the 100pts each session adds and might get to 1hr of heating in a month!Octopus session 3, 8 points like the last 2 up to 24 points now worth 3p
What is the hacking and the pre session window thingy? I've got my session 3 results which are the same as session 1 at 1650 points. Session 2 was 2400 points and I've no idea what I did differently.
My hands get like that too when at my desk.
Has anyone tried the infrared heating panels? Wondering if one of those in my office will warm my fingers up
So the £4000 additional cost by the house builder is added to the purchase price of the house. This on average is around 1.4% of the value of the property. With regards to that is a 12yr return to the initial cost. Now with regard to that then the longer you are at the property of course the better the return but it is also just good for future generations also.
Now the benefits that are missing that are gained are increased garden space where currently an average is only 25m2 for a 2 bed and 45m2 for a 3 bed at least south England (Oxfordshire, Gloustershire and such forth) so the gain by removing the ASHP also means the value of the property is higher by maximising the outdoor space without a huge unit there. It's not just the cost of the system or what it does but people's quality of living space should be considered and its something we consider on all our sites we put designs into.
Air source heat pumps are also not efficient generally below 7c, well here in the last 10 days it's been colder than that meaning the heat returned is minimal when you need it most. Ground source doesn't have such issue in that the temperature is more stable as you are pulling heat from 100m-200m out of the ground.
The other general benefit is of course general lower CO2 emissions which gov pays grants for to building sites and such reducing the cost further in terms of credits for doing such. Honestly all the benefits outstrip the negatives but the house builders in the UK and the regs that support them are woefully inadequate and it is sub par housing for short term profit gains that is the issue.
For every 100 houses going to GSHP over gas boiler is 70tonnes of carbon saved in a year and about 15tonnes over a ASHP system. You multiply that by the number of houses built every year and its a colossal saving still.
maybe heat pump cost reductions aren't imminent https://www.theengineer.co.uk/content/news/evidence-for-heat-pump-price-drop-fails-to-add-up/
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given forecasts of sub-zero - was wondering if the house thermostat has signed values.
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given forecasts of sub-zero - was wondering if the house thermostat has signed values.
Yeah there is no way right now that you can get parity on installation costs on a DIY system. But the argument given here isn't helpful. 5yrs od development and greater adoption will reduce the unit costs. These costs are the bigger part for house builders side not the installation when they are already on site doing ground works and such. Although this is mostly about ASHP too which as stated are completely different in that terms.
They are not the solution at all beyond someone's mandate in government to look like they helping. It's also best to combine GSHP with battery and solar. If you have a full ecosystem you can be carbon negative let alone neutral. Because you'd be able to supplement your own hot water and heating off grid 24/7 and with the correct setup it is possible to be completely off grid with electric at same time year round. The big problem is that's like £50-75k for an aftermarket install. Its about £20-25k per plot for a builder so at moment the uptake is limited of course but honestly if the government subsidised all housing to come with that so at around 35k homes a year that's £875 million a year if they covered 100% costs well look at what else the government has wasted monies on.
These are costs that have been similar since 2019 so you could have had over 100k homes across the UK that are carbon negative and providing to the grid now. The value of the properties would be higher for the builder so even if you took 50% and put that on the property value at £12.5k per home and government paid the other 50% then it would be a huge boon for the UK housing stock and the energy market.
£6 billion from Bulbs collapse is what 1.4million homes could have been built with a 50% subsidisation for that.
Soldato
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That logic doesn't work because it doesn't solve the bulb problem to subsidise green energy installations.
Also why would only some people benefit from this?
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Soldato
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Ok so you need a battery to really do it, or load shift specifically that day, eg dishwasher, tumble etc assuming your not using them off peak already
The savings window is a fixed time say 6-7pm. Your savings session data is compared to the same from the previous 10 (or 4 for weekend) non savings sessions days.
However in order to check that the weather is not particularly different they also review the three hours prior to the start of the savings session on that day, so if you load up your elec demand in those three hours it will look like your demand is higher.
Specifically how much difference it makes is unknown so you deffo dont use energy you dont need but if you need to use some then thats the window to use it in as it makes your daily load look higher.
Soldato
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Ah session 4 is also in now, 1600 more points
So it is, cheers, I'm up to 32 points (4x8 a session), no idea how they work this out, I'm on a battery and only use 1kWh a month outside of the cheap rate window
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Can you go to "Explore my energy use" I have a day of the week missing? Sat or Sun, yours the same?
Edit for pic.
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No I know. I'm just putting into perspective the waste that the gov did compared to what they could have done. There was no reason the situation should have ever cost £6 billion either.
And we are discussing new builds. Not subsidising current properties. Those costs are around 3x to 4x for retrofit compared to new build.
Soldato
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Can you go to "Explore my energy use" I have a day of the week missing? Sat or Sun, yours the same?
Edit for pic.
I think everyone is missing 03/12, but it should pop back up at some point.
Oh I don't think many people would disagree with you, we are incredibly good at wasting money/resources.
What I'd really like is an air source heat pump tech that can almost directly replace a gas boiler location/size. ground source as you pointed out is very hard to add later on, much easier before you start putting people and foundations down.
ASHP is OK at least in so far as putting up an external unit outside, and an internal thing inside where the boiler goes, but they don't seem to be ready to replace boilers yet in function.
I have a wall mounted combi boiler, I don't have a hot water tank at all, so I would effectively need something that can do what the combi does, and can plug into the existing CH system and work with the current rads.
Pretty much your only option there is a straight electric boiler at the moment. That will 3x your running costs at current prices.
ASHP doesn’t need an internal unit at all, everything is contained within the external unit. However you need either a hot water cylinder or some other means of creating hot water like an electric boiler. A cylinder being the most optimal solution in terms of both performance and running costs.
Soldato
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I have not massively explored it................ but i remember - must be 12 -18 months ago - an energy storage system for hot water heating shown on......... fully charged i think (its on youtube)
it was essentially a large insulated tank full of stones - so incredibly low maintenance - that you would heat up via electricity, but you would use off peak electricity which would make it not that expensive to run, and it had some water pipes running through it to heat your water.
it was better than a water tank because the stones could hold more energy than water, and iirc it was insulated enough that it would keep temp for ..... (from memory) a week at least. The stones could get upto - again from memory - 300 degress C+ (update 800 degrees) which obviously is more than water, and such was the insulation it was cool to touch on the outside.
sure right now today it would cost - even using off peak electricity - more than gas..... but this will surely have to change sooner rather than later. i reckon it is something i will look into when i have to replace my boiler..... Its main issue is weight. i dont have a garage and i am not sure it would be feasible to put in the attic...... but OTOH i dont really want a massive ASHP sticking out of my house either. My mate has an ASHP and its not bad for his use case (heating a swimming pool in summer - its another world! ) but it is not very efficient in winter (which is when you would most need one for a heating system) and its not that quiet, - ok for him as its not near his house but for my use case if i had one it would be right next to... my lounge probably
it was essentially a large insulated tank full of stones - so incredibly low maintenance - that you would heat up via electricity, but you would use off peak electricity which would make it not that expensive to run, and it had some water pipes running through it to heat your water.
it was better than a water tank because the stones could hold more energy than water, and iirc it was insulated enough that it would keep temp for ..... (from memory) a week at least. The stones could get upto - again from memory - 300 degress C+ (update 800 degrees) which obviously is more than water, and such was the insulation it was cool to touch on the outside.
sure right now today it would cost - even using off peak electricity - more than gas..... but this will surely have to change sooner rather than later. i reckon it is something i will look into when i have to replace my boiler..... Its main issue is weight. i dont have a garage and i am not sure it would be feasible to put in the attic...... but OTOH i dont really want a massive ASHP sticking out of my house either. My mate has an ASHP and its not bad for his use case (heating a swimming pool in summer - its another world! ) but it is not very efficient in winter (which is when you would most need one for a heating system) and its not that quiet, - ok for him as its not near his house but for my use case if i had one it would be right next to... my lounge probably
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Soldato
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Heat battery is a thing I think, they looked interesting.
Soldato
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Off peak elec should be cheaper to use for heating (anything) than gas assuming your on go
Go 7.5p/8.25p vs gas 10.3p
Thats before you factor in efficiency of boiler and indirect inefficiency of the water loop and pump etc
Go 7.5p/8.25p vs gas 10.3p
Thats before you factor in efficiency of boiler and indirect inefficiency of the water loop and pump etc
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You'd need to be able to store that energy though and then you're into efficiency problems again.
Very few people need to heat their homes at 2am
(That's ignoring that Go isn't available to 90% of the population either).