Great so your recipe is for the third world to continue to come to the UK but UK citizens decamp elsewhere.
Off topic and tongue in cheek. You need not reply
Junior Doctors Strikes
- Thread starter Dr House
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Great so your recipe is for the third world to continue to come to the UK but UK citizens decamp elsewhere.
Off topic and tongue in cheek. You need not reply
Caporegime
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Correct there is no final salary scheme anymore.
The 21% contribution isn't going to the individual, its going to the scheme to service all the pensions already being paid (the final salary ones that have been replaced by career average). When we retire the contributions of those still working will fund our pension payments (maybe, it seems pretty dodgy as theres a growing black hole) but as the pension is less generous each revision it may allow employer contributions to drop.
How you work out what you actually get as a an individual as % figure though is beyond me, it may not even be possible.
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21% of a current doctors salary being used as an amount to contribute to NHS doctors from the past is ridiculous. Part of my pension is a final salary scheme and it has never been in deficit and remains fully funded for the past employees and those yet to come. However it is in the private sector so that makes it more transparent to auditors I expect.
Meanwhile we are going to have strikes this summer from binmen to doctors from BMA to UNITE , the latter even striking for recognition against fellow union GMB. What fun.
Meanwhile we are going to have strikes this summer from binmen to doctors from BMA to UNITE , the latter even striking for recognition against fellow union GMB. What fun.
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Soldato
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Not that misleading to me, if I'm correct here it a 12.5% EMPLOYER contribution for your average senior Junior Dr or Registrar , then add employee and tax relief contribution you get nigh on that 21% its ridiculousto . I would hate to know how much I would have to give up on my salary to get a 12.5% employer contribution! PURE GREED.
GIVE THEM THE PAY RISE AND PUT THEM ON A WORK PLACE PENSION!
I thought i had the last of the Goverment gold plated pension with AFPS 75 , evidently not.
NHS pension contribution rates
A summary of contribution rates payable to your pension from you as an employee and your employer.
www.bma.org.uk
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@Minstadave has covered this mostly.
The part you are missing is that a public sector pension scheme isn’t fully funded (or funded at all), it’s paid for out of current budgets.
It’s exactly the same as the state pension which is paid for by current tax receipts, there isn’t a massive pot of money set aside for current pensioners, it’s paid for by you and I.
This is very different to a private sector defined benefit scheme which must be fully funded. If the company goes bust, there wouldn’t be any new money to pay future pensions.
That’s less of a concern with a public sector pension because in theory the U.K. state isn’t going bust, well that’s what they thought when they set it up.
In reality, public sector pensions are now a massive unfunded liability. The contributions made by its initial member were effectively used to pay for day to day spending rather than being invested like most other public sector pension schemes work in other countries (see Canadian teachers who part own a bunch of utilities in the U.K. and make a nice return for their members).
U.K. public sector pensions and state pensions are a massive exercise in can kicking and pushing the cost onto future generations.
The problem is you can’t solve it because without the contributions of existing employees or tax payers, you can’t fund existing pensions so you can’t save/invest existing employees contributions.
No, you are totally wrong here.Not that misleading to me, if I'm correct here it a 12.5% EMPLOYER contribution for your average senior Junior Dr or Registrar , then add employee and tax relief contribution you get nigh on that 21% its ridiculousto . I would hate to know how much I would have to give up on my salary to get a 12.5% employer contribution! PURE GREED.
GIVE THEM THE PAY RISE AND PUT THEM ON A WORK PLACE PENSION!
I thought i had the last of the Goverment gold plated pension with AFPS 75 , evidently not.
NHS pension contribution rates
A summary of contribution rates payable to your pension from you as an employee and your employer.
See above, public sector pensions are complete unfunded, contributions from employees and employers are used to pay existing pensioners who retired on far better terms than current public sector workers could ever hope to have.
The 21% has got literally nothing to do with funding current employees pension schemes.
In reality, existing public sector pensioners didn’t pay anything like enough towards them because they retired earlier and lived far longer than was expected when they were originally set up.
In practice it didn’t really matter because the money was used for day to day expenditure anyway rather than being set aside for later use. The cost is kicked down the road for future generations - story of the U.K.
To reiterate, the 21% is misleading.
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It is a ponzi scheme hence why you put x billion into the NHS or education and get x-y ROI. Plus an eternally disgruntled workforce who should be remunerated as per private sector rules. Work hard get promoted and paid well. Don't and get consequences.
deputy of the bma interviewed on r4today - only sensible thing she said was £24/hr seems inadequate for overnight supervision of 7 wards,
otherwise, if there were strikes to correct the injustice of the use of rpi for doctors(and students?) loans and its use on road-tax+train-fares, would they be content.
otherwise, if there were strikes to correct the injustice of the use of rpi for doctors(and students?) loans and its use on road-tax+train-fares, would they be content.
I would argue that the public need to change as well. If they took care of themselves better and didn't abuse the service unnecessarily (using them when not really required) then waiting lists would come down, staff would be less stressed/less likely to burn out etc etc.
Sure, the NHS could probably do with some changes internally but the public could help as well by stopping abusing the system.
Quite, drinking until falling over then ending up in a+e and abusing staff. There should be a ward (shed) for that.
I know this might seem harsh, but they really need to turn away those with out British passports and only accept foreign health insurance cards after contacting the their countries issuer.
Start somewhere meaning full, and watch other structural changes develope.
Then look at how much it costs to outsourced v internal hire.
Start to create deep changes and watch the rest come later.
Soldato
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Whoa, hold your horses. Give Rachel and Co a chance they're making a pretty good effort and with the support of the unions they still might pull it off.
Not really, no. The sinking ship started in 2010. The trajectory prior to 2010 was in line with most other European countries. We are not lagging well behind.
This is largely thanks to investment spending falling off a cliff thanks to the conservatives spending decisions post 2010.
If the government isn’t investing, neither is the private sector, hence why growth has basically flatlined and everywhere else recovered post financial crisis and then Covid much faster than we did.
almost everyones wage got crushed by inflation and wage crunches.
it's not something specific to junior doctors and there shouldn't be special circumstances just because its tax payer funded.
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Caporegime
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The doctors have taken the biggest hit to be fair:
Pay rises alone will not stem the flow of Britain’s medics
Stress, burnout and workplace culture are driving the mounting exodus
www.ft.com
The precious pay rise helped stabilise it but didn't do much reverse the loss.
Everyone else's wages needs to improve too. Workers need solidarity not an invented competition between public and private, which the right love to use to ratchet everyone's pay and conditions down. This is why the whole economy needs more unions and more involvement of workers/unions in corporate governance. Also, as pointed out above, the erosion for Resident Doctors has been worse than most of the rest of the public sector and much worse than the private sector (which did see positive, if dismal, pay growth over the long years of Tory economic incompetence).
Well as Germany seems to border on almost permanent recession, they aren't doing too great either. Nor most western European states.
if you are proposing double digit pay rises for all public sector workers, I think that you will be saddened and also precipitate Maggie v2 which is what happened the last time we had a resurgence of union actions leading to mass strikes.
I see your pressing your boring obsession into every thread again. Yawn.
The 70s saw GDP grow by an average of 2.7% a year, and real household income rising by 30% across the decade. Compared to the miserable pickings of the Tory economic mismanagement since 2010 who wouldn't want that?
Inflation was a real headliner too. The IMF came into it somewhere as well. It was not a bed of roses although in my opinion it was a fine decade for other reasons.
The key in his post was the word real. Aka adjusted for inflation.
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QUOTE, despite the macroeconomic turbulence of the 1970s, annual GDP growth still averaged 2.7% and living standards rose significantly. Growth in real household disposable income (RHDI) per head was either low or negative for much of the decade, but grew rapidly in 1972–73 and 1978–79, leaving RHDI per head almost 30% higher in 1979 than it was in 1970.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-18">[18]</a> This was a greater increase than was experienced in either the decade before (the 1960s) or the decade that followed (the 1980s).
This enhancement in living standards was underpinned by strong wage settlements, with 1976 and 1977 the only years in the decade where wage growth did not outstrip inflation.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-19">[19]</a> However, increasing labour costs contributed to the acceleration of sectoral shifts which began in the 1960s. Private sectors where labour compensation made up a high share of total costs, such as manufacturing (78%), transport, storage and communication (70%), and distribution, hotels and catering (66%), declined. Whereas private sectors where labour compensation made up a low share of total costs, such as financial services, business services, rent and real estate (33%) or oil and natural gas extraction (6%), expanded.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-20">[20]</a>
In 1970, manufacturing was by far the largest sector of the economy, contributing 30.1% of total output, whereas financial services, business services, rent and real estate, the next largest sector grouping, contributed 17.8%.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-21">[21]</a> However, by 1979, these positions had almost reversed. Manufacturing fell by 6.7 percentage points (its largest fall in any decade before or since) to 23.4%, whereas financial services, business services, rent and real estate rose to 22.1%. It would be in the 1980s that the latter would officially overtake the former to become the largest sector grouping; however, the roots of this reversal are evidently much deeper.
END QUOTE.
Not all a bed of roses indeed. Partial quoting of selected statistics is strong indeed. The tragic industrial relations of this decade led to the decline of labour intensive industry and the inevitable election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 after the winter of discontent.
And @Mr Jack inflation in 1975 was 24% from the paper you quoted, the year before, 1974 it was 16,5% and the year after, 1976, the hot one it was 16%. Not a lot of fun when I was starting out on £25pw and I am sure by pay rises were not matched to those rates.
This enhancement in living standards was underpinned by strong wage settlements, with 1976 and 1977 the only years in the decade where wage growth did not outstrip inflation.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-19">[19]</a> However, increasing labour costs contributed to the acceleration of sectoral shifts which began in the 1960s. Private sectors where labour compensation made up a high share of total costs, such as manufacturing (78%), transport, storage and communication (70%), and distribution, hotels and catering (66%), declined. Whereas private sectors where labour compensation made up a low share of total costs, such as financial services, business services, rent and real estate (33%) or oil and natural gas extraction (6%), expanded.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-20">[20]</a>
In 1970, manufacturing was by far the largest sector of the economy, contributing 30.1% of total output, whereas financial services, business services, rent and real estate, the next largest sector grouping, contributed 17.8%.<a href="https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/the-uk-economy-in-the-1970s/#fn-21">[21]</a> However, by 1979, these positions had almost reversed. Manufacturing fell by 6.7 percentage points (its largest fall in any decade before or since) to 23.4%, whereas financial services, business services, rent and real estate rose to 22.1%. It would be in the 1980s that the latter would officially overtake the former to become the largest sector grouping; however, the roots of this reversal are evidently much deeper.
END QUOTE.
Not all a bed of roses indeed. Partial quoting of selected statistics is strong indeed. The tragic industrial relations of this decade led to the decline of labour intensive industry and the inevitable election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979 after the winter of discontent.
And @Mr Jack inflation in 1975 was 24% from the paper you quoted, the year before, 1974 it was 16,5% and the year after, 1976, the hot one it was 16%. Not a lot of fun when I was starting out on £25pw and I am sure by pay rises were not matched to those rates.
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