Junior Doctors Strikes

Liefrich said:
In short - it would be nice to pay them more, but there is little chance they get their demands met. It will be interesting to see what their actual bottom line is.
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To be fair the junior doctors could easily break the Gov within a week or two if they simply withdrew all out of hours work indefinitely. It's not well paid, its the most expensive to cover and most of them would gladly be at home in the evenings and nights.

It's what I'd do in their shoes.
 
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Cue teachers strikes later this year.

www.theguardian.com

Teachers’ union elects former FBU general secretary on turnout below 5%

Former leader of Fire Brigades Union secured 5,249 votes against Neil Butler after legal challenge to executive’s earlier decision
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Wrack, who led the Fire Brigades Union for 20 years, thanked NASUWT members for placing their trust in him. “NASUWT is a proud and powerful voice for teachers, and together we will make that voice even stronger. Now, our priority is unity and action.

“Teachers have endured years of underinvestment, overwork, and undervaluing of our profession. We urgently need government to invest in education – that means fair pay, manageable workloads, and safe, respectful working environments for staff and students.

“I will work tirelessly with our executive and activists across all nations to secure the conditions and respect teachers deserve. This is a critical moment for education, and NASUWT will lead the way in fighting for our members’ rights.”

Total turn out was 5% in the election to select their new president.
 
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Tram said:
Many engineers are leaving the UK because the pay is low, yet engineering professions are one of the foundations of an economy. In fact, many British engineers are now working abroad, where they are better compensated and more appreciated. They often bring significant value to foreign companies, leading innovation teams.

Without boasting I am knowledge inference engineer with ML, a "hybrid engineer", I moved into that area a few years ago, the pay in the UK is good but when you look at what offered in other countries, you wonder am i being ripped off, the answer is YES.
You’d be surprised, it's not difficult once you understand the foundations.
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This has been the way as long as I can remember, and that's a very long time.
After the war, Britain lost faith in it's scientists, and this was primarily led by politicians. We have underinvested in science ever since.
It wasn't the fault of the scientists rather it was just a lack of understanding/trust from the politicians.
All the way through my career R&D was something that the powers-that-be just didn't want to invest in. It was seen as necessary but unfortunate and the idea was to invest as little as possible.
We still play a major role in many innovations in this world, but often as employees of companies based outside the UK.
 
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ubersonic said:
It's not just a rise though, it's mostly a reversal of previous cuts/freezes.

The right wing media are just saying it's a massive rise because they make money from stirring up anger/hate/resentment.
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Depends which form of inflation you choose to use.
 
meanwhile reform councillor for Scarborough gets 600% rise ;)

for the record I do think it takes the .... the doctors already complaining about money again. most of us are not getting the pay rises we would like these days
 
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bigmike20vt said:
meanwhile reform councillor for Scarborough gets 600% rise ;)

for the record I do think it takes the .... them already complaining about money again. most of us are not getting the pay rises we would like these days
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Yes from £500 to £3500. ;)
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
It also assumes that everyone elses pay has kept up with inflation - it hasn't. If it had, they might have had a point but it hasn't.
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Usual response to that reasonable argument is "shall we just have a race to the bottom.then?" or words to that effect :rolleyes:
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
No, the sensible response is to offer an above average pay rise like the government has done.
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Perhaps I wasn't being clear enough... I wasn't rubbishing your post, I was saying that the usual response to that kind of reasonable post is for it to be rubbished by the "race to the bottom" nonsense retort.
 
The entire situation is unpalatable. Newly qualified doctors knew exactly what they were being paid, yet those same newly qualified doctors have immediately gone on strike to demand the restoration of pay from a time when they were still at school. You might have thought that, having recently qualified and received a near 30% increase in basic pay over the past few years alone, they would be eager to focus on helping the nation’s sick.

Perhaps there could be a rolling option to allow doctors to choose between pay increases and pension contributions. Each doctor individually could then decide whether to prioritise their basic pay during the early years of their career and shift their focus to pension contributions later on.

Additionally, a mechanism could be introduced to gradually write off student medical debt based on years of service.
 
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darkgen said:
.Additionally, a mechanism could be introduced to gradually write off student medical debt based on years of service.
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this is an absolute no brainer imo and could be used for a range of specific specialised skills we are short on for those who stay in full time employment in the UK.
I know with my mentality and fear of debt there is no way I would go to uni in the traditional sense now. Having a free education for all for those who got the grades used to be a source of national pride and I remember chatting with my folks about how glad we were we were not like the states where you had to be loaded to go to the best schools (albeit with scholarships available). (I will admit things got silly when you could get a degree in media studies with a couple of D A levels funded by the state)

I was fortunate enough to be one of the last English grant supported uni students and with no fees.
Having some form of long term carrot to get the loan reduced I think is a better idea than giving pay rises for those who strike

30 years from now I reckon the same chat will be had about the NHS.
 
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I don’t think the mechanic should be debt write off. A fairer mechanic could be the NHS simply covers the student loan repayment/contribution which is taken off their NHS employment. That way it’s a fairer reflection for those that work for the NHS full time, get the most benefit.

The NHS should be covering ongoing training costs for those working in the NHS, particularly as it’s a requirement for their role. Training contracts are normal in the private sector, they pay for the training providing you work for them for X years post qualification. If you leave they recover the costs from you.
 
darkgen said:
The entire situation is unpalatable. Newly qualified doctors knew exactly what they were being paid, yet those same newly qualified doctors have immediately gone on strike to demand the restoration of pay from a time when they were still at school. You might have thought that, having recently qualified and received a near 30% increase in basic pay over the past few years alone, they would be eager to focus on helping the nation’s sick.

Perhaps there could be a rolling option to allow doctors to choose between pay increases and pension contributions. Each doctor individually could then decide whether to prioritise their basic pay during the early years of their career and shift their focus to pension contributions later on.

Additionally, a mechanism could be introduced to gradually write off student medical debt based on years of service.
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You apply for medical training 6 to 7 years before your first pay check, so its not entirely fair to say they new what they were getting themselves in for.

During my time as a JD we saw pension reform, imposed contracts, year on year of pay freeze or sub inflation rises. None of this will have been known to me at the time of applying, we just rolled over and took it apart from one brief period of tepid IA.

It's not an easy situation being beholden to a single employer and seeing your salary being held down for the good of the public finances. You can only subsidise the NHS for so long.

You're right that the have had a recent significant pay rise, and the right to full pay restoration isn't a thing, but they were sold a pathway to pay restoration and this hasn't happened. If the Gov just offered +2% above inflation for 6 years then this would likely all have been done and dusted.

More recently the Gov and NHSE noise has made the Residents increasingly angry. The Gov recognised the crap that Residents have to put up with during the talks but would only improve it if the strikes were called off, that's not what a good employer does. Trying to block Residents from taking up overtime to earn lost pay is just a non starter and threatening an impact on their training for taking up their right to IA is probably illegal.

Whilst this is going on the Gov is expanding hiring of doctors assistants on band 7 and 8 pay which equates to a doctor with around 5 years of experience whilst working less hours and being unable to work unsupervised. This is just mental.

Working in the NHS is like being in an abusive relationship, you can't leave without massive life disruption.

I wouldn't allow any kind of pension reform if I was the BMA. We've already seen a massive downgrade of the pension in my time. Cutting contributions to bolster the salary in early years is a non starter.
 
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