Junior Doctors Strikes

I guess the fundamental issue with this is that you can't just give people more money endlessly from the public coffers. We are already in a financial mess in this country and you can't just ignore that and say "you should have a payrise". You need to sort out the fundamentals because if you just keep writing those cheques and piling on the debt then nothing good will come of it.

I'm not adverse to most people getting pay rises but currently a huge proportion of the country is in trouble, the public finances are in trouble and holding a gun to healthcares head perhaps isn't the best thing right now. Then again, when will that change...
 
fez said:
I guess the fundamental issue with this is that you can't just give people more money endlessly from the public coffers. We are already in a financial mess in this country and you can't just ignore that and say "you should have a payrise". You need to sort out the fundamentals because if you just keep writing those cheques and piling on the debt then nothing good will come of it.
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The problem is that not giving the public sector payrises is a major part of what strangled growth in the first place. Debt is dealt with by growth and inflation, and growth has been strangled by falling wages. Tory economic incompetence in the 2010s started this, then further Tory bungling gave us Brexit making everything worse, and Covid ramped up the amount of debt the country had to take on. Repeating the mistakes of the 2010s will only make matters worse, but the country is also in a far worse position to fix this. Navigating a path through this mess needs a more delicate hand and a competent government -- something that has seemed lacking of late.
 
fez said:
I guess the fundamental issue with this is that you can't just give people more money endlessly from the public coffers. We are already in a financial mess in this country and you can't just ignore that and say "you should have a payrise". You need to sort out the fundamentals because if you just keep writing those cheques and piling on the debt then nothing good will come of it.

I'm not adverse to most people getting pay rises but currently a huge proportion of the country is in trouble, the public finances are in trouble and holding a gun to healthcares head perhaps isn't the best thing right now. Then again, when will that change...
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We aren't going to get economic growth while our health service is failing people and leaving more and more unable to work. It needs more money spending on it, and that includes paying enough to hire and retain good staff.

Thankfully the government do seem to be finally willing to address the problem and raise taxes, which is what is required in the short term. We've tried the failed Conservative approach of cutting and cutting and cutting and expecting growth to magically appear. It's time to do things differently.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
most middle income workers in the entire country have had sub inflation pay rises over the same period also.

If everyone else had inflationary pay rises, we wouldn’t have had the last 24 months talking about a cost of living crisis.
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Yup everyone is hurting but doctors have been disproportionately hit compared to both the rest of the public sector and private sector.

It's getting ridiculous, ever increasing work whilst facing pay freezes, hiring freezes, colleagues leaving overseas, fewer and fewer of us shoring up a failing system.
 
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mid_gen said:
We aren't going to get economic growth while our health service is failing people and leaving more and more unable to work. It needs more money spending on it, and that includes paying enough to hire and retain good staff.

Thankfully the government do seem to be finally willing to address the problem and raise taxes, which is what is required in the short term. We've tried the failed Conservative approach of cutting and cutting and cutting and expecting growth to magically appear. It's time to do things differently.
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The problem with your post is you state the conservatives were cutting and cutting, this is not true, the exact opposite is true, they were spending like crazy.

So are you lying on purpose or do you believe this?
 
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platinum87 said:
The problem with your post is you state the conservatives were cutting and cutting, this is not true, the exact opposite is true, they were spending like crazy.

So are you lying on purpose or do you believe this?
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Local government funding grants were cut by over 50% under the last tory. This is why public services are ****ed and yet council tax goes up every year. There's a gigantic funding hole they created and we are continuing to pay the price in lower productivity.

Funding for the health services did not keep pace with rising demand and inflation under the conservatives which are real term cuts. Public sector pay was cut in real terms. All of this is a drag on productivity.

Don't even get me started on the vast oceans of cash that have been flushed down the toilet on the 80s Tory privatisation disaster that we're picking up the tab for.

We lost nearly a decade of growth when money was basically free, when we should have been investing and building and growing the economy, instead we urinated that opportunity up the wall on a fundamentally flawed ideologic crusade. Morons.
 
mid_gen said:
We aren't going to get economic growth while our health service is failing people and leaving more and more unable to work. It needs more money spending on it, and that includes paying enough to hire and retain good staff.

Thankfully the government do seem to be finally willing to address the problem and raise taxes, which is what is required in the short term. We've tried the failed Conservative approach of cutting and cutting and cutting and expecting growth to magically appear. It's time to do things differently.
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Unfortunately the government were so unsure of getting in that they made it very hard for themselves to actually raise any taxes.
They fritter around the edges, raising taxes on business which neuters growth and have very little left to do.
Raise income tax, take 2p off NI, add 3p to the basic rate of income tax, that captures a few pensioners like me and probably gains over 10bn for the exchequer overall.
So what, promises?
 
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Unless I'm mistaken, they've already had 30% rise in 3 years (that was reported on the BBC yesterday)? There is some way to go before their spending power returns to pre 00s levels, but striking again after already getting a 30% payrise?

Public support for this is going to be almost nil, especially in the middle of winter flu season.

[Edit] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyk5zr7p71o

Yep, they've already received a 30% payrise in 3 years.
 
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It really is pitiful how greedy these JUNIOR doctors are. When I started working I was on the bottom rung of the payscale and only after years of proving myself did my salary increase, yet these greedy ********* seem to think they immediately deserve a massive wage just because they decided to become a medical professional. Having worked for both the NHS and in private healthcare I know how much they earn after they have worked their way up a little bit and I have ZERO sympathy for them. If you don't want to do your job then **** off and do something else. You knew how much the NHS paid when you joined and your pension benefits are far superior to most other companies, not to mention all the freebies and discounts you get from the likes of the Blue Light Card and similar schemes.
 
Infidelus said:
It really is pitiful how greedy these JUNIOR doctors are. When I started working I was on the bottom rung of the payscale and only after years of proving myself did my salary increase, yet these greedy ********* seem to think they immediately deserve a massive wage just because they decided to become a medical professional. Having worked for both the NHS and in private healthcare I know how much they earn after they have worked their way up a little bit and I have ZERO sympathy for them. If you don't want to do your job then **** off and do something else. You knew how much the NHS paid when you joined and your pension benefits are far superior to most other companies, not to mention all the freebies and discounts you get from the likes of the Blue Light Card and similar schemes.
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straight out of mumsnet :D
 
I honestly can't tell if he's serious.

I mean you can IIRC be a "junior" doctor for something like 5-10 years after finishing your initial training, and having completed a lot of additional training, as it's the job title (IIRC you can be one for ages after having the qualifications for a consultancy, but you need that consultancy position to open up).
 
Werewolf said:
I honestly can't tell if he's serious.

I mean you can IIRC be a "junior" doctor for something like 5-10 years after finishing your initial training, and having completed a lot of additional training, as it's the job title (IIRC you can be one for ages after having the qualifications for a consultancy, but you need that consultancy position to open up).
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Yeah they changed it to Resident in the end because it was so misleading.
 
Werewolf said:
I honestly can't tell if he's serious.

I mean you can IIRC be a "junior" doctor for something like 5-10 years after finishing your initial training, and having completed a lot of additional training, as it's the job title (IIRC you can be one for ages after having the qualifications for a consultancy, but you need that consultancy position to open up).
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Yes but you are on the ladder and a rising pay scale. It is not like just cost of living rises unless you are so dumb that you don't progress.
 
Many career paths have been rebased at point of entry due to inflation. It's all interlinked, so the argument of criticality is moot, like arguing if your heart is more important than your lungs. No teachers or lecturers means no university, which means no doctors or nurses.
 
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chrcoluk said:
I dont think I would have it in me to strike for more pay when I know the entity I work for is on its last legs.
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It's been on it's last legs for over a decade, that's been used as an excuse to cut real terms pay that entire time, at some point the solution can't be that the staff subsidise it endlessly.

The NHS doesn't have to be on it's last leg, the Government decide it's funding and the UK population don't seem to mind 3 day A&E waits, beds in the corridors on wards, "GP" appointments with any random half baked practitioner etc.
 
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Minstadave said:
It's been on it's last legs for over a decade, that's been used as an excuse to cut real terms pay that entire time, at some point the solution can't be that the staff subsidise it endlessly.

The NHS doesn't have to be on it's last leg, the Government decide it's funding and the UK population don't seem to mind 3 day A&E waits, beds in the corridors on wards, "GP" appointments with any random half baked practitioner etc.
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It has been on its last legs for several decades at least. I don't ever remember a golden age. Record investments apparently by this government yet demands for more are already rife.

Taxes for everybody will need to go up. Not just the usual suspects, the middle and high earners but everyone it seems or the NHS will never be satiated. Is it 11.1% of GDP. We need more.
 
Minstadave said:
That's what it feels like at the moment. It feels like just the mugs hold the line.
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Right so as I said if you want more NHS, people will have to pay for it. Or government changes its priorities which is unlikely. So 3p on income tax, 25bn straight to your priorities which appears to be doctors salaries.
 
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