Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

[mmj_uk]

The amazing thing about all this, which I'd not known before, is that xy chromosome people, with complete androgen insensitivity, will develop just as a woman would, breasts, hips and all (probably not menstruation, though, I imagine).

If they're androgen insensitive, they don't gain any of the advantages of high testosterone. And they are a woman in all bar chromosomes and reproductive organs.

But she hasn't developed breasts or hips and has a pretty perfect male body? her vagina is connected to nothing that a females vagina is normally connected to in terms of reproduction because female internal organs simply aren't there, she has internal testes which is the primary male reproductive sexual organ and lets face it looking at the photo dowie posted how many men on here wouldn't want to have that same physique? I'm not sure how you can argue androgen insensitivity when she has such an impressive male physique.

They wouldn't know they weren't a woman until they tried to conceive, or had certain tests.
...
She's been brought up a woman, quite reasonably believed she was a woman.

You would know at around puberty, it's understandable that before then that her parents would think she was a girl because externally she had a vagina but internally her sexual reproductive organs seem to be all male and her body has developed as a male body would, not female. Scientifically she has XY male chromosomes.

This isn't the 'stolen valour' of a lifetime male transitioning to female and expecting to co-opt resources or allowances or platforms hard fought for by women (see Trans Exclusionary Feminism). She's been brought up a woman, quite reasonably believed she was a woman.

It's very little like trans issues.

Well not all trans people are transitioning to win scholarships and medals either but it's still unfair for them to compete against women, Semanya was born with a mostly male body (inwardly and biologically), she has a vagina instead of a penis due to a birth defect, her puberty appears to have been far more towards the male end of the spectrum which is understandable since she had internal testes and high testosterone levels. At the end of the day you have someone who (knowingly or not) has spent the better part of their life developing a male body and is now competing against women in physical competition.

 

[FoxEye]

The whole track and field has always been about genetic differences. Should black people be able to compete with white people in the 100 meters sprint? Should long distance runners who have genetics originating from high altitude countries be aloud the race against low altitude? Should black and white swimmers be separated? Then you have all that rubbish with the 80's druggies and their unbeatable world records.

You could be Mr 5ft3 John Smith from Macclesfield and put in 300% more training and effort than Usain Bolt but you are never going to beat him in a sprint.

So by that logic we should abolish mens and womens categories in sport; just let the best/most genetically advantaged men win...

Effectively this will be the result of allowing intersex (and/or trans) to compete with women anyhow.

 

[Roar87]

It's really easy, just rename Mens division to Open division, and female is protected as it should be. Caster can run in the Open division

 

[cheesyboy]

But she hasn't developed breasts or hips and has a pretty perfect male body?

I'd dispute that. She definitely has breasts, albeit not obvious in all pics. It's not a purely male chest. But she's definitely not fully androgen insensitive, she shows some effect of testosterone (hence I agree that she shouldn't be competing with women)

 

[dowie]

I'd dispute that. She definitely has breasts, albeit not obvious in all pics.

You haven't provided anything to dispute it though, you've just repeated a baseless claim. Where are these pics where she has breasts?

 

[cheesyboy]

You haven't provided anything to dispute it though, you've just repeated a baseless claim. Where are these pics where she has breasts?

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/iaaf-caster-semenya-human-rights-1.5115453
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48114137
https://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/2019-05-02-im-a-die-hard-thats-a-fact-caster-semenya/

As a man, I'd be happy to have guns like hers, but I'd be a bit embarrassed to carry those jugs.

 

[dowie]

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/iaaf-caster-semenya-human-rights-1.5115453
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48114137
https://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/2019-05-02-im-a-die-hard-thats-a-fact-caster-semenya/

As a man, I'd be happy to have guns like hers, but I'd be a bit embarrassed to carry those jugs.

Just looks like pectoral muscles, only the first one slightly looks like breasts but given the multiple other photos out there of her in tight tops with just the outline of pectoral muscles I'm calling BS on that.

I note you've decided not to carry on with your assertion of her having female hips.

 

[cheesyboy]

Just looks like pectoral muscles, only the first one slightly looks like breasts but given the multiple other photos out there of her in tight tops with just the outline of pectoral muscles I'm calling BS on that.

I note you've decided not to carry on with your assertion of her having female hips.

You didn't ask about hips. Again, as a man I'd not be pleased with having hips like hers, but I acknowledge they're not exactly hourglass.

And those aren't pecs. Be real.

 

[dowie]

And those aren't pecs. Be real.

This is her running in high school, back when she had less muscle mass, less defined pecs... we'd still expect to see breasts though if she had those:



She's got the body of a teenage boy there, not sure about these "female hips" either... I think you're just making things up.

 

[mmj_uk]

Her condition sounds a lot like this:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

Best I can tell she's intersex yes but it's not some 50/50 split where she's half female, half male, if she had been born with a penis and scrotum would it even be in question? how does it differ from a trans person who grows up male and has cosmetic surgery to have a vagina but without the hormone treatment? Personally I don't think hormone suppression is enough because a drop in testosterone won't just suddenly undo all of those years of testosterone driven development in the body. Like I've said before the fairest thing to do for everyone (intersex/trans athletes and especially biological women) would be to have two more male and female categories exclusively for intersex/trans athletes, otherwise Semenya should be competing in the mens. The fact that she wouldn't be competitive there isn't an argument that she's more of a woman, neither would most of the planet.

 

[Jokester]

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_Semenya_ASA_IAAF_decision.pdf

The actual findings of the case are actually very revealing and oddly not reported. Caster has XY chromosomes (not really a surpise) and has a development disorder.

 

[Nasher]

Her condition sounds a lot like this:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

Best I can tell she's intersex yes but it's not some 50/50 split where she's half female, half male, if she had been born with a penis and scrotum would it even be in question? how does it differ from a trans person who grows up male and has cosmetic surgery to have a vagina but without the hormone treatment? Personally I don't think hormone suppression is enough because a drop in testosterone won't just suddenly undo all of those years of testosterone driven development in the body. Like I've said before the fairest thing to do for everyone (intersex/trans athletes and especially biological women) would be to have two more male and female categories exclusively for intersex/trans athletes, otherwise Semenya should be competing in the mens. The fact that she wouldn't be competitive there isn't an argument that she's more of a woman, neither would most of the planet.

Could have competed as a man but used legal loopholes for the easier competition I guess.

 

[mmj_uk]

Caster Semenya's case is pretty unique in the grand scheme of things in that she at least has a claim to being intersex, the far bigger scandal is happening with trans athletes in schools/colleges in the US with biological girls losing out on scholarships and potentially careers to boys who simply identify as girls. All in all it seems like a good way push biological girls/women out of sports.

 

[Nasher]

Yep but when those boys start wanting to compete at a higher level with women, they will be told to get lost. So it's a total waste.

 

[ubersonic]

Should Bolt be penalised because he naturally has longer legs than most and perhaps more fast twitch fibres?

No, and IMO nobody should be penalised for being born with a natural advantage that makes them physically superiour to 99% of the population, hell that describes EVERY SINGLE OLYMPIAN... >.>

The added comedy here, is that we have already seen the Paralympic sprints decend into a contest of "guy who shows up with the longest prosthetics wins" (2012 Paralympic Mens 200m), so there is something that could actually benefit from standardization (of the prosthetics, not the atheletes).

 

[Hodders]

It's a horrible situation born of society slowly realising that we are non-binary in nature. Man-Woman is a grey scale and Caster sits in a really uncomfortable place.

Ian Thorpe won 37 gold medals in swimming and has SIZE 17 FEET. The guy has flippers. No one complains - after all "it's natural". Should a promising swimmer be able to have his/her feet surgically 'lengthened'? What about surgically webbed hands?

If Caster is XX or XY is a very personal matter. Since Sydney in 2000 chromosome testing has not been used for sex verification since Martinez-Patino (XY with androgen insensitivity - competing as a female athlete) was re-instated after being banned in the 1980s.

Hormone levels seem to offer a clearer link to athletic performance and any "unfair" advantage. But where does this stop?

If Caster reduces her hormones to "normal" female levels then does she still have the benefits of a skeleton and muscle attachments that come with "male" growth patterns and adolescence? Sadly she is an innocent 'drugs cheat' who unwittingly and through no fault of her own has been taking testosterone for years. A bit like the East German athletes in the 70s and 80s.

Personally - I feel terribly sorry for her. But now she knows the truth of her situation (even if we don't) can she really feel that she is winning? Surely it must feel like an over 18s rugby team beating a U12 team - a bit hollow.

Maybe we should all focus on the pleasure and beauty of sport rather than the winning and the money?

The following article is a good summary....

 

[Nasher]

No, and IMO nobody should be penalised for being born with a natural advantage that makes them physically superiour to 99% of the population, hell that describes EVERY SINGLE OLYMPIAN... >.>

The added comedy here, is that we have already seen the Paralympic sprints decend into a contest of "guy who shows up with the longest prosthetics wins" (2012 Paralympic Mens 200m), so there is something that could actually benefit from standardization (of the prosthetics, not the atheletes).

I dunno, I want to see it keep... escalating...

 

[Roar87]

No one is saying Caster can't run or that you can't have physical advantages, just not in the women's class because Caster isn't strictly female. If Caster had the testosterone levels of a man but was an actual woman with a vagina, breasts and XX chromosomes then no one would have an issue, that isn't the case.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

It's a horrible situation born of society slowly realising that we are non-binary in nature. Man-Woman is a grey scale and Caster sits in a really uncomfortable place.

Utter nonsense. The fact there are the occasional oddity does not undermine the existence of a binary. Those are rogue values which are statistically unimportant.

The overwhelming majority of men and women fall into fairly narrow ranges. We are binary in most respects.

 

[h4rm0ny]

Utter nonsense. The fact there are the occasional oddity does not undermine the existence of a binary. Those are rogue values which are statistically unimportant.

The overwhelming majority of men and women fall into fairly narrow ranges. We are binary in most respects.

To go further, Caster isn't on some strange middle-ground between male and female. Any more than if a dog has a birth defect it would make it somewhere on the spectrum between dog and cat.