Caster Semenya could be forced to undertake hormone therapy for future Olympics

Its tricky one. Its not fair for her to compete against other women because she has a genetic advantage over elite members of that group. And she hasnt got the full benefit of male charactaristics either (lets be honest, how many men actually do? Im male yet not very athletic or well built so its tough luck really).

I dont think forcing hormone suppressents into her is fair or dignified either. She simply should not be allowed to compete in that group. Shame for her but its the only fair way.
 
Well they're not forcing her to do that, it is her choice to compete, but I do agree that it isn't something they should encourage, ideally she and other intersex athletes simply shouldn't be allowed to compete in the female category.

One solution is to have the "male" category redesignated as an "open" category, another would be to have a third intersex and trans category, or perhaps a seperate trans and intersex games just like the paralympics etc.. (or perhaps even combined with events like that).

Though I guess it has been hard enough to get the evidence needed simply to show a clear advantage in middle distance events, arguments about rather more subtile advantages in other events are going to be harder to demonstrate.
 
We need to accept that not everyone can be included in everything. I'd be a bit ****** off if I couldn't go to the cinema at certain times because of the way I was born but at the same time I understand that I can't go swimming when it's women only swim.

This lady is basically a bloke bar the sausage.

I would not be happy if my daughter had to compete with "women" who were basically men. Would anyone?
 
Watching the interview on the BBC, for the first 20 seconds or so at least he she they attempt to sounds a bit more like a woman. Wasn't watching just listening and by a minute in I thought it was someone different speaking..deeper voice than me :o
 
they need a separate category or ban 'her'.
If they don't then all that will happen is that no biologically born woman will ever be able to compete in womens sport again - they might as well not bother.
I don't consider that progress, or good for women or society in general.
 
d_brennen said:
We need to accept that not everyone can be included in everything.
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This.

We're basically tearing structures that make a great deal of sense apart for a tiny minority that don't conform to the norms and what we're left with is something that makes far less sense, it's chaos.

There needs to be separate events for both trans men and women and just as they have in the Paralympic games different categories within them, so that a trans man who has only just transitioned doesn't get obliterated by someone who has developed fully as a man over a number of years, or in the case of women someone who has only just transitioned with basically a male physique doesn't have an advantage over those who have over a number of years developed more feminine bodies.
 
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I find this article quite interesting; have the Fatima Whitbreads of the past dodged a bullet?

In the nicest possible way, all Olympians are freakish, capable of things you or I couldn’t do if we trained for a lifetime. But for many, what this case illustrates is the way some anomalies are celebrated and others are not. A swimmer who naturally produces unusually low levels of lactic acid from his pumping muscles or a skier whose body just happens to generate freakishly large numbers of blood cells can still take their rightful place on the podium. But hormones, that most angrily contested aspect of female biology, seemingly fall into a different category...

...There have almost certainly been elite sportswomen in the past with naturally sky-high testosterone levels that we simply didn’t know about.
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https://www.theguardian.com/comment...athletics-south-african-ethics-sport-science?
 
Testosterone is such a profound advantage that the other runners may as well not bother entering. You can inject Testosterone and gain more muscle sat on your sofa than someone training naturally at a gym every day. To make women compete against Semenya is like putting a 145lb boxer in the ring against a 200lb boxer, you just wouldn't do it.
 
Roar87 said:
Testosterone is such a profound advantage that the other runners may as well not bother entering. You can inject Testosterone and gain more muscle sat on your sofa than someone training naturally at a gym every day. To make women compete against Semenya is like putting a 145lb boxer in the ring against a 200lb boxer, you just wouldn't do it.
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there is a contact sport angle here that doesn't quite apply. in this sense, i suppose weight classes in womens boxing will be less affected by this kind of problem. only the highest weight class would be obviously affected.
 
visibleman said:
Likewise, i haven't read the entire thread but is there anything medically that makes them female if they don't have female reproductive organs?
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No, the logic is basically "not a male so must be female". Which would have some arguability if not for the fact the "not a male" part of the statement doesn't hold up. It's like saying someone born without arms and legs can't be human and must be a snake.
 
danlightbulb said:
Its tricky one. Its not fair for her to compete against other women because she has a genetic advantage over elite members of that group. And she hasnt got the full benefit of male charactaristics either (lets be honest, how many men actually do? Im male yet not very athletic or well built so its tough luck really).

I dont think forcing hormone suppressents into her is fair or dignified either. She simply should not be allowed to compete in that group. Shame for her but its the only fair way.
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Caster is a lot larger than many men. 5'10", 70kg. Can't really say they're disadvantaged athletically when at minimum they're about average for a male. If you call Caster disadvantaged compared to other males that would be something you level at half the male population. Fact is, they're an average-ish male competing in women's events. It's true they wouldn't qualify at all in men's events. But that doesn't mean they're disadvantaged - nor would the vast majority of other men.
 
String said:
I find this article quite interesting; have the Fatima Whitbreads of the past dodged a bullet?

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...athletics-south-african-ethics-sport-science?
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Well no, she’s a (biological) woman. That article isn’t interesting it is the usual misleading stuff with the flawed comparisons. A woman can have natural high testosterone for a woman or long legs etc...

The issue is intersex people who identify as female while being biologically male. If they don’t suppress their testosterone levels then they can be the equivalent of a good club/national level in terms of males and end up beating professional females.
 
Really? Is she REALLY a biological women or is that just what her and her lawyers say?

If tests show XY chromosomes, it's a man.
 
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Of course she/he/whatever has an advantage.
They shouldn't be allowed to compete against biological women, its not fair at all.
Same as women who transition to men, they will get destroyed as biological men have a distinct advantage regardless.
 
The whole track and field has always been about genetic differences. Should black people be able to compete with white people in the 100 meters sprint? Should long distance runners who have genetics originating from high altitude countries be aloud the race against low altitude? Should black and white swimmers be separated? Then you have all that rubbish with the 80's druggies and their unbeatable world records.

You could be Mr 5ft3 John Smith from Macclesfield and put in 300% more training and effort than Usain Bolt but you are never going to beat him in a sprint.
 
I don't think anyone said athletics had to be completely fair, the point of it has always been to find who is the best at a given event but there has always been a clear separation between men and women because in most physical competition it is obvious women are at an insurmountable physical disadvantage.

From what Azza has posted Semenya is basically a man but has physical birth defects in terms of outwards appearance, even if you control her testosterone levels now it won't counteract all of those years of developing a male physiology. There needs to be intersex events in the Paralympics or something or women will find it increasingly hard to compete as intersex people queue up for easy medals.
 
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