Man of Honour
Only if they are actual constables, PCSOs are not and therefore no batons, PAVA spray, etc. for them.
PCSO'S why even bother.
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Only if they are actual constables, PCSOs are not and therefore no batons, PAVA spray, etc. for them.
done it in a couple of roles, as a bouncer in public events and the normal weekend idiocy, and also while working at a homeless shelter for long term residents, both had their good and bad interactions with police of all types, pcso's, specials and police officers but the vast majority of bad ones seemed to involve pcso's be it getting physical or generally dithering over what to do in a situation. again iv had good experiences with them but just feel they need a bit more training if 2 on 1 is something the inspector feels he needs to speak out about when the public didnt get involved.
Soldato
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I have 2 very close family members who are PCSOs, both earn around 28/9k (we live approx 30 mins from Brighton). I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to 'wrestle' anyone. I was under the impression if anything ever gets physical they are to push their orange button and/or call for backup.
There are obviously some of the lazy ones who do nothing all day, but I think that is more to do with the area they are assigned too. My family members have said as much. But I do think it's harsh to judge them all like that or call them Plastic Police. They do a lot of work, usually stuff that frees up PCs, like scene guard duty, statements, giving bad news, searching for missing people. Some of it is really grim too. Some PCs really value PCSOs because they get to know the community and can quite often get a lot of information. Not to mention having to deal with the low life drunks and drug addicts day in day out.
There are obviously some of the lazy ones who do nothing all day, but I think that is more to do with the area they are assigned too. My family members have said as much. But I do think it's harsh to judge them all like that or call them Plastic Police. They do a lot of work, usually stuff that frees up PCs, like scene guard duty, statements, giving bad news, searching for missing people. Some of it is really grim too. Some PCs really value PCSOs because they get to know the community and can quite often get a lot of information. Not to mention having to deal with the low life drunks and drug addicts day in day out.
Man of Honour
Well this thread has enough myths and ignorance to boil my blood. The reality is that the cuts in Police numbers mean there are a lot more officers on their own. When the **** hits the fan, you may be the difference between a serious injury and retraining someone successfully resulting in a safe detention for everyone. I know a sgt who has had to have had facial surgery recently when he got into an altercation single crewed. Members of the public could have made a huge difference in that situation. We're all human at the end of the day.
I can tell that you have zero experience of trying to restrain someone who is completely committed to getting away from you. It's hard for anyone, regardless of how much they go to the gym or train in restraint techniques. I knew an officer who was built like a tank and was a specialist public order officer. He got medically retired when he was trying to restrain someone attacking his colleague after his pectoral muscle literally got ripped from his chest.
No, just no. Firstly, the legislation that police officers use to give them the power to use reasonable force to effect an arrest is primarily s3 Criminal Law Act 1967. This is a power that everyone here has. It's not specific to police officers. With that said, there is a power for a constable to request help from a member of the public. It's an offence not to assist. Whilst this never gets used, it illustrates the point that members of the public can be very helpful in these sorts of situations.
Generally common sense is a good thing to exercise here, but since that seems to be in short supply, I'll address some of the points directly:
Probably wise to avoid that.
What would happen if you didn't? Would the officer face immediate harm? Could you justify your use of force to a reasonable person? I can think of circumstances where I could be completely happy with someone using some of my dropped PPE on a suspect.
Like I said, you've got the same powers in law, so if the police can do it, you can too in the right circumstances.
How about you ask them? Just because I'm in a fight with someone doesn't mean I'm deaf and mute. Offer me your help and I'll direct you with what I need you to do, we can avoid all of that confusion. I can guarantee you'll get a warm response and a lot of thanks afterwards if I need you.
No, but you may stop someone being seriously hurt or even killed.
It's not rocket science. Pulling someone’s legs when they're on the floor can really help restrain someone and doesn't need an 8 week course in karate. As for the second part of that sentence, this is BS. Use a bit of common sense and you'll get a commendation from the Chief Constable, not be arrested. People do get involved and assist police, they're often not seen on the news, but I do see them getting the aforementioned commendations. You have loads of protections in law if you're acting in good faith and are reasonable.
This is just BS. Literally the entire post.
One final point. Lets remember one of the founding principles of British policing from the Peelian principles: The police are the public and the public are the police.
I can tell that you have zero experience of trying to restrain someone who is completely committed to getting away from you. It's hard for anyone, regardless of how much they go to the gym or train in restraint techniques. I knew an officer who was built like a tank and was a specialist public order officer. He got medically retired when he was trying to restrain someone attacking his colleague after his pectoral muscle literally got ripped from his chest.
No, just no. Firstly, the legislation that police officers use to give them the power to use reasonable force to effect an arrest is primarily s3 Criminal Law Act 1967. This is a power that everyone here has. It's not specific to police officers. With that said, there is a power for a constable to request help from a member of the public. It's an offence not to assist. Whilst this never gets used, it illustrates the point that members of the public can be very helpful in these sorts of situations.
Generally common sense is a good thing to exercise here, but since that seems to be in short supply, I'll address some of the points directly:
Probably wise to avoid that.
What would happen if you didn't? Would the officer face immediate harm? Could you justify your use of force to a reasonable person? I can think of circumstances where I could be completely happy with someone using some of my dropped PPE on a suspect.
Like I said, you've got the same powers in law, so if the police can do it, you can too in the right circumstances.
How about you ask them? Just because I'm in a fight with someone doesn't mean I'm deaf and mute. Offer me your help and I'll direct you with what I need you to do, we can avoid all of that confusion. I can guarantee you'll get a warm response and a lot of thanks afterwards if I need you.
No, but you may stop someone being seriously hurt or even killed.
It's not rocket science. Pulling someone’s legs when they're on the floor can really help restrain someone and doesn't need an 8 week course in karate. As for the second part of that sentence, this is BS. Use a bit of common sense and you'll get a commendation from the Chief Constable, not be arrested. People do get involved and assist police, they're often not seen on the news, but I do see them getting the aforementioned commendations. You have loads of protections in law if you're acting in good faith and are reasonable.
This is just BS. Literally the entire post.
One final point. Lets remember one of the founding principles of British policing from the Peelian principles: The police are the public and the public are the police.
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Soldato
I was writing a response out about the times I've helped PCOS's and constables while out and about, but I think @Burnsy2023 has said it better than I can. In fact, each time I've helped I've had a simple "are you ok?" and a thanks you and that's been in. Never even took my details.
Even if it's just sitting on someone's legs, it'll help
Even if it's just sitting on someone's legs, it'll help
Man of Honour
PCSOs are in a role that is supposed to be non-confrontational. They're there to engage with the community and prevent crime and not be getting hands on. With that said, sometimes circumstances require it and this might be one of those times. They don't have the same PPE nor the same training - they had to do they best with what they had at the time and I certainly wouldn't criticise them for that.
PCSOs are needed because as soon as you make them all constables, the engagement and prevention work will be deprioritised and not happen. Having people where this is literally their role ringfences them to ensure it happens.
Soldato
It's pretty clear from this thread that people just simply do not know what the role of a PCSO is. I'm very grateful for what they do, as it means I don't have to do it
Thing is Burnsy, I'm not trained. I don't know that pulling someone's legs helps. I don't know what reasonable force is, and in the event I'm fighting someone, I'm likely to panic and go all in, rather than stay calm and think about what's "reasonable". I could break arms or fingers, or kick someone in the face. People have been killed just from one punch in the head. I could get stabbed, and I've not got a stab vest on. What happens if someone pulls a knife on the ground while struggling with an officer, and I panic and stamp on their head? Then the "reasonable force" protection disappears.
What happens for instance if I see a policeman being attacked by a crowd so I decide to save him by running my car at them and running over people? I'm not going to get out and confront a group, but I can be safe in my car and help a police officer. I may kill a few, but is that "reasonable"? I have no idea, and that's why I probably shouldn't try and play vigilante or pretend I'm Jean-claude Van Damme.
A commendation is nice and all, but what happens if it end up in court, what happens if a member of the public is hurt or killed while trying to help out? I don't have the police union looking out for me.
Helping is one thing, but being asked to do something I have absolutely no skills or training in, that could get me and others hurt is often a bad idea. You might as well ask me to jump in and land the passenger jet when the pilot has a heart attack. Sure, it might work out, but someone who can fly a plane is a much better bet.
Exactly the same thing applies to members of the public, only more so.
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Yeah I think you'd have quite a lot of leeway, especially when a knife is present, he's essentially threatening your life or at least very serious harm and so "reasonable force" on your part as an unarmed person who isn't a police officer/similar professional is going to be pretty anything you can do to remove that immediate threat/danger from the knife.
A member of the public that isn't sure they should do something is probably going to red mist and seriously hurt the assailant, frankly unless i was within 7 or something metres, that is someone elses problem regardless of whats going on.
And frankly if its a busy time, you aren't going to prosecute dozens of people for not going into a violent situation.
The fact is that there needs to be more officers, minimum 2 man/woman crew.
And frankly if its a busy time, you aren't going to prosecute dozens of people for not going into a violent situation.
The fact is that there needs to be more officers, minimum 2 man/woman crew.
My dad got a knee in the face and nearly stabbed with a screwdriver for trying to help out the police once by rugby tackling someone they were chasing - certainly not something to take lightly.
Man of Honour
All of that is accounted for in the law. Do you think Police Offices always get this right, even with their training? s76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 gives allowances for this. You may not be aware of it, but you have LOTS of protections in law as long as your're acting to help protect someone else rather than just give them a kicking.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/self-defence-and-prevention-crime - This is designed for burglar type incidents but is applicable to all types of use of force for self defence or defence of others. Act honestly and in good faith and this is great evidence to show you acted within the law.
Not driving your car into a crowd would be the right call, but I think you know that. Whilst you're pushing at the boundaries to make a point, I can tell that you do know what's reasonable and would likely make good decisions. The law is designed to protect people like you.
Life is about risk and managing it, that's just part of being human. You're more likely to be killed in a road traffic collision than for this to be a problem. You could trust me in believing that you have loads of legal protections or you could read up and learn about it. They're there for everyone regardless.
That is totally unreasonable a priori knowledge for the pleb to know beforehand.
The fact is that the public doesn't know, so unless this becomes a school age educational matter* (which frankly would be more than a little strange to teach**), they wont know and almost never will, expecting people to just trust authorities especially after all the guff in recent years (rightly or wrongly) is expecting far too much.
*you could do a campaign of highlighting this to people in general, but... let's be honest, it's going to get highjacked.
**Just realised that maybe a Civics course (also political/monetary education) would be appropriate?
The fact is that the public doesn't know, so unless this becomes a school age educational matter* (which frankly would be more than a little strange to teach**), they wont know and almost never will, expecting people to just trust authorities especially after all the guff in recent years (rightly or wrongly) is expecting far too much.
*you could do a campaign of highlighting this to people in general, but... let's be honest, it's going to get highjacked.
**Just realised that maybe a Civics course (also political/monetary education) would be appropriate?
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I totally agree. That's why I'm not surprised that people think about the risk of piling into a fight between the police and who knows what, think about what might or might not happen to them, think about their level of training and equipment, and then decide that it's safer for them and their families not to wade in.
The public see things like moped raiders get away with it because the police are too afraid to chase them for fear of hurting the criminals, or people who kill in self defence during house invasions having to leave their homes and go into hiding forever, senior officers hiding in cars while the public are attacked by knife wielding terrorists, burglaries not even being investigated, knife and gun crime on the increase due to drugs gangs, etc.
It's no surprise that the public see this and think that if the Police can't handle things, what am I going to do in their place?
We need more Police, there's no doubt about that, and there's no doubt the damage that Theresa May and the Tories have done to policing and law and order in this country. You can't make up for that by encouraging the members of the public to become have-a-go heroes, just like we shouldn't be encouraging them to go running into burning buildings because the fire brigade is late.
Soldato
What we need is StriderX in tight blue spandex with X on the front, saving all the people (via the internet only).
Soldato
Thats were I'm just not sure that statement would be accurate should someone get hurt because of my actions and I think most people would think the same.
In an extreme case if someone helped an officer by putting the guy in a choke hold and he suddenly dies of a heart attack from being choked then the helper WILL go to court, potentially wrecking their life even if found innocent. In a milder case if they just hold a guys arm and it breaks during the struggle, I'd "guess" they'd might still be arrested with the subsequent risk of prosecution but unless they knew for sure what they can/can't do before hand they probably wouldn't risk it because their idea of "reasonable force" maybe vastly different than a juries/CPS etc. Oh and god forbid the suspect is a female who then cries all kind of sexual assault happened etc!
I'm sorry that it's got to this but the Police can't expect instant help from everyone any more, although some will still try and help anyway. It's not about being moral or decent, nowadays when those who previously might help think that is a high risk of being arrested should something go wrong, you can't "expect" that help. Maybe a high profile TV/Radio campaign showing what you can/can't do would help greatly in todays "sue everyone" culture but simply leaving it up to peoples "guesses" of what they consider Reasonable Force to be, with a huge risk of punishment should they get it wrong, I can see why so many people don't help anymore.
However in a less "devils advocate" way, I'm ex-military so personally I'd try and help but as ex-military I've had 20+ years of yearly "What is Reasonable Force" training (allowing me to carry a firearm on Guard duty) so I've got a better idea of what is/isn't allowed vs the vast majority of the public.
What's funny is it might free up a few thousand coppers to patrol the streets if he does, since they take hurt feelings online so seriously even whilst real crime spirals out of control.
It doesn't even have to be a criminal offence for the police to be interested in dealing with your time consuming complaints. "Non crime hate incident" lol. Total and utter control freaks more like, "here let us police your emotions".
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