Man of Honour
Aren't the police armed with batons these days?
Only if they are actual constables, PCSOs are not and therefore no batons, PAVA spray, etc. for them.
Aren't the police armed with batons these days?
Do we have to guess this part or will you tell us? It's perhaps important.
the issue for me is the fact two supposed trained pcso's (which the police still keep calling officers even though they arnt) may have needed the general public to help them with A person. like i said above maybe they should hire more physically able pcso's or just hire full time officers with the pcso's wage.
You'd probably get arrested by the Police when the criminal asks to press assault charges.
Where does the line get drawn? Is someone allowed to set their dog on the suspect? Can you pick up a cop's dropped baton, taser, or pepper spray and use them on the suspect? Can you punch the suspect in the fact to subdue them like the police have been known to do? Will the police think a third party entering the fight is helping them or hindering them? Maybe you'll be mistaken for the suspect's friend and get attacked by the police? What happens if you get seriously hurt by the suspect or police during your intervention? You're not going to get pensioned out of the force due to injury.
People stay clear because they are neither trained nor equipped to help PCSOs in that manner, and are just as likely to get themselves arrested and prosecuted for interfering as not. They could be seriously hurt and leave themselves without a way to support themselves or their families. It's one thing to jump in when there are no police around to defend yourself or others, but when there's officers on site doing their jobs, most people are just going to stay clear and let them get on with it, rather than get involved and make a situation worse for themselves and others.
Is someone allowed to set their dog on the suspect?
Can you pick up a cop's dropped baton, taser, or pepper spray and use them on the suspect?
Can you punch the suspect in the fact to subdue them like the police have been known to do?
Will the police think a third party entering the fight is helping them or hindering them? Maybe you'll be mistaken for the suspect's friend and get attacked by the police?
What happens if you get seriously hurt by the suspect or police during your intervention? You're not going to get pensioned out of the force due to injury.
People stay clear because they are neither trained nor equipped to help PCSOs in that manner, and are just as likely to get themselves arrested and prosecuted for interfering as not
Why would you help? if the suspect claims that you assaulted him in some way those same police you were helping will probably slap some cuffs on you to meet their failing targets and then you'll have to go through a 1-2 year court process in the hope of clearing your name. Besides they shouldn't employ weaklings, why should people put their lives at risk to protect someone who is being paid handsomely to supposedly do the job, it's like hiring a taxi driver who can't drive and then expecting passengers to take the wheel.
I have 2 very close family members who are PCSOs, both earn around 28/9k (we live approx 30 mins from Brighton). I'm pretty sure they aren't supposed to 'wrestle' anyone. I was under the impression if anything ever gets physical they are to push their orange button and/or call for backup.
There are obviously some of the lazy ones who do nothing all day, but I think that is more to do with the area they are assigned too. My family members have said as much. But I do think it's harsh to judge them all like that or call them Plastic Police. They do a lot of work, usually stuff that frees up PCs, like scene guard duty, statements, giving bad news, searching for missing people. Some of it is really grim too. Some PCs really value PCSOs because they get to know the community and can quite often get a lot of information. Not to mention having to deal with the low life drunks and drug addicts day in day out.
It's not rocket science. Pulling someones legs when they're on the floor can really help restrain someone and doesn't need an 8 week course in karate. As for the second part of that sentence, this is BS. Use a bit of common sense and you'll get a commendation from the Chief Constable, not be arrested. People do get involved and assist police, they're often not seen on the news, but I do see them getting the aforementioned commendations. You have loads of protections in law if you're acting in good faith and are reasonable.
PCSOs are in a role that is supposed to be non-confrontational. They're there to engage with the community and prevent crime and not be getting hands on. With that said, sometimes circumstances require it and this might be one of those times. They don't have the same PPE nor the same training - they had to do they best with what they had at the time and I certainly wouldn't criticise them for that.
On the topic of proportional self defence, I got a good kick in the guys ribs when he was on the floor, but he was still flaying around and trying to get his knife hand up in the air. In that situation I think anything I did would have been classed as self defence as the guy had a weapon and there were lots of members of public/kids etc nearby.
I personally think in these situations you are unlikely to be found guilty of an offence by a jury of your peers if the person is attacking back, they are posing a risk to yourself and others. I would be more concerned with personal safety than legal repercussions.
Thing is Burnsey, I'm not trained. I don't know that pulling someone's legs helps. I don't know what reasonable force is, and in the event I'm fighting someone, I'm likely to panic and go all in, rather than stay calm and think about what's "reasonable". I could break arms or fingers, or kick someone in the face. People have been killed just from one punch in the head. I could get stabbed, and I've not got a stab vest on. What happens if someone pulls a knife on the ground while struggling with an officer, and I panic and stamp on their head? Then the "reasonable force" protection disappears.
What happens for instance if I see a policeman being attacked by a crowd so I decide to save him by running my car at them and running over people? I'm not going to get out and confront a group, but I can be safe in my car and help a police officer. I may kill a few, but is that "reasonable"? I have no idea, and that's why I probably shouldn't try and play vigilante or pretend I'm Jean-claude Van Damme.
A commendation is nice and all, but what happens if it end up in court, what happens if a member of the public is hurt or killed while trying to help out? I don't have the police union looking out for me.
Helping is one thing, but being asked to do something I have absolutely no skills or training in, that could get me and others hurt is often a bad idea. You might as well ask me to jump in and land the passenger jet when the pilot has a heart attack. Sure, it might work out, but someone who can fly a plane is a much better bet.
Thing is Burnsey, I'm not trained. I don't know that pulling someone's legs helps. I don't know what reasonable force is, and in the event I'm fighting someone, I'm likely to panic and go all in, rather than stay calm and think about what's "reasonable". I could break arms or fingers, or kick someone in the face. People have been killed just from one punch in the head. I could get stabbed, and I've not got a stab vest on. What happens if someone pulls a knife on the ground while struggling with an officer, and I panic and stamp on their head? Then the "reasonable force" protection disappears.
The CPS have published a joint leaflet with ACPO for members of the public making clear that if householders have acted honestly and instinctively and in the heat of the moment, that this will be the strongest evidence for them having acted lawfully and in self-defence.
What happens for instance if I see a policeman being attacked by a crowd so I decide to save him by running my car at them and running over people? I'm not going to get out and confront a group, but I can be safe in my car and help a police officer. I may kill a few, but is that "reasonable"? I have no idea, and that's why I probably shouldn't try and play vigilante or pretend I'm Jean-claude Van Damme.
A commendation is nice and all, but what happens if it end up in court, what happens if a member of the public is hurt or killed while trying to help out? I don't have the police union looking out for me.
Life is about risk and managing it, that's just part of being human. You're more likely to be killed in a road traffic collision than for this to be a problem. You could trust me in believing that you have loads of legal protections or you could read up and learn about it. They're there for everyone regardless.
All of that is accounted for in the law. Do you think Police Offices always get this right, even with their training? s76 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 gives allowances for this. You may not be aware of it, but you have LOTS of protections in law as long as you're acting to help protect someone else rather than just give them a kicking.
What we need is StriderX in tight blue spandex with X on the front, saving all the people (via the internet only).