Scotland has School-Based Officers embedded in some schools partly for that reason, I would assume at least some forces in E&W are doing a similar thing.
PCSO'S why even bother.
- Thread starter GAC
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Scotland has School-Based Officers embedded in some schools partly for that reason, I would assume at least some forces in E&W are doing a similar thing.
So in any physical confrontation they're about as much use as an ashtray on a Motorbike.
Man of Honour
Depends how good their ninja skills are I suppose.
Soldato
Reasonable is a poor choice of "legal" word Burnsy because, as I've said before to you, what is reasonable to me maybe different to the 12 people on the Jury in my manslaughter case when my 15 second choke hold (which I felt was reasonable vs a violent person) causes the guy to have a heart-attack and die, and it WILL go to court, potentially ruining my life even if found innocent!.
If you think I'm exaggerating thats EXACTLY what happened to NYPD officer Daniel Pantaleo who was arrested, charged and dragged through the courts to be ultimately found not guilty after having his life, career and family ripped apart during the trial (LINK)
As someone trained for over 20 years in the legal ramifications of the word "reasonable" is it ultimately a bull-crap term which means absolutely nothing because no matter what you believe, the prosecution lawyer WILL try and prove your actions were NOT reasonable and if a jury, away from the adrenaline of moment and with the benefit of hindsight, disagrees with you then you ARE going to jail no matter how much YOU think your actions were reasonable.
Well said ianh, you only have to look at the Tory thread with the MP leading the climate protestor out by her neck, he clearly felt his actions were reasonable under the circumstances but if OCUK members and his party (who suspended him) were the jury he'd probably be found guilty. Reasonable is subjective so in all likelihood it's going to come down to who has the best lawyer. Are the potential years of stress and legal fees worth it? it's one of those situations where the red tape has made people unwilling to get involved.
Just absolute lol at the complete lack of knowledge in this post.
Man of Honour
This Dispatches episode is very relevant: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/on-demand/69835-001
Man of Honour
So your using a case from the US to make a point about the legal systems in the UK?
Permabanned
15 years ago I would (and twice did) help, and risk the then slight possibility of being in court myself, but when I see this total farce, especially with a firearms unit allegedly entrapped with these wets, sod `em, PC has left them open to such situations, and if this is the best that they can do then they can take a kicking whilst ticking all the "right on" boxes. Frightening, pitiful and pathetic. With a firearms unit present anyone suggesting lack of funding gets my ridicule. If the hierarchy, or indeed the cops on the scene feel able to allow such a scenario to develop to such a degree they can wallow in it at their leisure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-aF9qe56A
The entrapment of many officers in a cul de sac in Bradford after apprehending an alleged car thief.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ-aF9qe56A
The entrapment of many officers in a cul de sac in Bradford after apprehending an alleged car thief.
Soldato
I'm showing that one trained Police Officers version of "Reasonable Force" was different enough from other trained Police Officers that he was arrested, charged and he went to court over it and had his life ruined over 15 seconds of action which he thought was "Reasonable".
So saying "you untrained people will be alright so long as what you do is reasonable" is absolutely no guarantee what so ever as that case shows. If someone (even you as a Police Officer) seriously injure or kill someone then they WILL be arrested and possibly charged no matter how "reasonable" you believe your actions to have been at the time.
That is the risk people face when you say "Just use reasonable force".
Don
Interesting thread;
For those who didn't know (probably the majority of you - but Burnsy might recall, as we've talked about this previously and shared on the forum in the police thread). I was in the process of becoming a police officer. It was just before the pension scheme got changed - I went through the process, got accepted and offered a place in Kidderminster. Kidderminster wasn't somewhere I wanted to work - I wanted to be closer to home (not too close!) as I wanted to help the communities closer to me, rather than in the other parts of Shropshire where I never visit. So I said I'd wait. Then boom, the changes hit; Pension was changed massively, cuts to the police force and a recruitment ban was in place. I was told I'd have to wait a minimum of a year for a place - no issue I said. I then destroyed my ACL, and had to go through the whole process again - which I decided against; I don't regret it, but I always wonder what if;
Back on topic - my neighbour is a PCSO. I spoke to him the other week about it, as I hadn't seen him for a while and asked the question - why are you still a PSCO, rather than a full PO? What's your reasoning?
His answer - simple, lack of stress. He works simpler hours (9-5 basically), has less paper work and overall less stress. He gets less money than a Police Officer of course - but the money isn't that much difference in the grand scheme. He loves what he does, but wouldn't want to be a full PO. Interesting point of view.
I think introducing PCSO cheapened the Police Force, the Constable role essentially. I think adding PCSO's in at a lesser level, rather than at a Constable level was a mistake. It was seen originally as a stepping stone into the police force by a lot of people - but without a pro-active approach to pushing PCSOs into the full role (whether they want to or not is up to them of course), we'll end up with vastly skewed numbers, where PCSO's are happy being 'POs' - but without some of the responsibility / paper work.
I think reform is needed within the Police Forces and obviously extra funding.
I've never been in the position where I've had to help a Police Officer; I've never seen anyone running away from the police or what have you. But would I help? Absolutely - I think that's maybe because I was in the process though, rather than being a good samaritan. But yes, I'd throw our a leg to trip an offender, or help subdue if ever called upon.
For those who didn't know (probably the majority of you - but Burnsy might recall, as we've talked about this previously and shared on the forum in the police thread). I was in the process of becoming a police officer. It was just before the pension scheme got changed - I went through the process, got accepted and offered a place in Kidderminster. Kidderminster wasn't somewhere I wanted to work - I wanted to be closer to home (not too close!) as I wanted to help the communities closer to me, rather than in the other parts of Shropshire where I never visit. So I said I'd wait. Then boom, the changes hit; Pension was changed massively, cuts to the police force and a recruitment ban was in place. I was told I'd have to wait a minimum of a year for a place - no issue I said. I then destroyed my ACL, and had to go through the whole process again - which I decided against; I don't regret it, but I always wonder what if;
Back on topic - my neighbour is a PCSO. I spoke to him the other week about it, as I hadn't seen him for a while and asked the question - why are you still a PSCO, rather than a full PO? What's your reasoning?
His answer - simple, lack of stress. He works simpler hours (9-5 basically), has less paper work and overall less stress. He gets less money than a Police Officer of course - but the money isn't that much difference in the grand scheme. He loves what he does, but wouldn't want to be a full PO. Interesting point of view.
I think introducing PCSO cheapened the Police Force, the Constable role essentially. I think adding PCSO's in at a lesser level, rather than at a Constable level was a mistake. It was seen originally as a stepping stone into the police force by a lot of people - but without a pro-active approach to pushing PCSOs into the full role (whether they want to or not is up to them of course), we'll end up with vastly skewed numbers, where PCSO's are happy being 'POs' - but without some of the responsibility / paper work.
I think reform is needed within the Police Forces and obviously extra funding.
I've never been in the position where I've had to help a Police Officer; I've never seen anyone running away from the police or what have you. But would I help? Absolutely - I think that's maybe because I was in the process though, rather than being a good samaritan. But yes, I'd throw our a leg to trip an offender, or help subdue if ever called upon.
I spent 3.5 years as a PCSO and absolutely loved the role. At it's core it's a community based role, giving the public a relationship with the police that has been lost over time since 'bobbies on the beat' became 'bobbies in response cars'. Unfortunately after the rounds of cuts and more cuts we were asked to take on extra responsibilities over time. Things that a PC would normally have been doing. Now that's fine as the PC's were always super busy, but it stopped PCSOs doing what they were intended for. I don't think PCSOs should really be detaining offenders, unless they were absolutely compliant. But we did. We wanted to get the person who had stole/assaulted/etc because we remember the victims circumstances, and we wanted to help our colleagues out. It is absolutely a matter of budgets here.
I left the role because I did not want to join as a police officer. I wanted to when I started out. However within 3.5 years I had seen enough to put me off. Constantly under staffed, long overtime at the end of your shift (that wasn't optional), cancelled rest days, superior offices not backing you when **** hit the fan (with the exception of your immediate Sergeant, who were always brilliant). Every incident became a 'cover your arse' exercise. Many PCSOs I knew who went on to be police officers always said they enjoyed it less, and would go back to being a PCSO if they could. Don't get me wrong though. I absolutely respect anyone who is or wants to be a police officer. It takes real personal dedication. I think I would have really enjoyed it but the work/life balance, risk/reward, was not for me.
I would have course help a PCSO/PO if I saw they needed it. Would I expect a member of the public to? No, not really. If they do help - fantastic & good on them. I can't recall a member of the public ever helping me when detaining someone, but I understand why.
I left the role because I did not want to join as a police officer. I wanted to when I started out. However within 3.5 years I had seen enough to put me off. Constantly under staffed, long overtime at the end of your shift (that wasn't optional), cancelled rest days, superior offices not backing you when **** hit the fan (with the exception of your immediate Sergeant, who were always brilliant). Every incident became a 'cover your arse' exercise. Many PCSOs I knew who went on to be police officers always said they enjoyed it less, and would go back to being a PCSO if they could. Don't get me wrong though. I absolutely respect anyone who is or wants to be a police officer. It takes real personal dedication. I think I would have really enjoyed it but the work/life balance, risk/reward, was not for me.
I would have course help a PCSO/PO if I saw they needed it. Would I expect a member of the public to? No, not really. If they do help - fantastic & good on them. I can't recall a member of the public ever helping me when detaining someone, but I understand why.
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Eh? What does the presence of an ARV at an incident have to do with the poor funding of police services?
It's because it's a common and justified line of attack of anyone non-government supporting in any manner, it's suddenly wrong if it's not tacit approval of said government.
Such dissonance is willful.
The police aren't going to be around to help when him and/or his mates beat you up or stab you for assisting in his arrest and they won't do anything if you keep getting a brick through your window. Communities are becoming dangerous enough already without creating enemies among them by helping plod do their jobs because they've been watered down and turned from a force into a farce by anti-discrimination laws and political correctness.
People have basically lost trust and confidence in the police and justice system to the point where, like I said before, it's better not to get involved unless you're a victim. Even if you don't wind up in court on an assault charge for helping you could still become a walking target for some druggie who lives around the corner. I bet a lot of police work in areas well away from where they live for that very reason.
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If anyone, Police/PCSO or civilian, is in trouble and in need of help then let's hope you're not the only person around.