2008 Belgian GP - Race 13/18

olv · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:00

imo it is clear that he doesn't lift, he just doesn't accelerate as hard as he could have, thus allowing kimi to regain his place... where's the issue?

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:02

olv said:
imo it is clear that he doesn't lift, he just doesn't accelerate as hard as he could have, thus allowing kimi to regain his place... where's the issue?

TBH nobody can argue that he does do that or not until we see the data, but McLaren say he 'lifted'. Maybe they are just using that term, but to me lifted means taking your foot of/removing some 'gas', not, just not putting it on quite as hard.

Kitchster_uk · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:03

JUMPURS said:
The position he was in, i would be surprised if he was still braking.

So are you saying he gained an advantage by cutting the corner, because if he tried to make his maneuver stick, he would have lost it??

No. I am saying he had three choices.

1) Keep his line and crash with KR. This would have lost him the race, got him a massive fine, 10 place grid drop and pretty much handed the championship to FM.

2) Slam on the anchors at the chicane as KR left him nowhere to go. Total lottery in damp condtions on those curbs and would most likely have involved LH spinning and probably dropping down to 3rd behind KR & FM, providing it didn't stall and then his race would have been over.

3) Go straight over. That then gave two further outcomes of a) Keep going and face a drive-thru penalty or b) give the place back.

That is all LH could do and the only way he could get away from any penalty, was 3b - and even that was punished. He couldn't win.

Coolasmoo · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:03

knip said:
I cannot believe that 2 people are making excuses for this despicable decision.

Corrected for you

realscot · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:04

he maybe cut the chicane cos he thought he was racing michael schumacher and thought kimi would rather take him out than let him throught. Also shame on kimi for almost forcing Mr "for sure" almost off the track at the start. I might pick a new favourite driver before the end of next year now. Its between Mr for sure, fred, and vettel at the moment.

Kitchster_uk · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:05

JUMPURS said:
But the FIA do not cite that as a problem, the FIA say he didn't need to cut the corner, which he didn't. People where speculating the slip streaming before any info had came out.

Err...yes he DID need to cut the corner. What else could he do? Smash into KR?

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:05

Kitchster_uk said:
No. I am saying he had three choices.

1) Keep his line and crash with KR. This would have lost him the race, got him a massive fine, 10 place grid drop and pretty much handed the championship to FM.

2) Slam on the anchors at the chicane as KR left him nowhere to go. Total lottery in damp condtions on those curbs and would most likely have involved LH spinning and probably dropping down to 3rd behind KR & FM, providing it didn't stall and then his race would have been over.

3) Go straight over. That then gave two further outcomes of a) Keep going and face a drive-thru penalty or b) give the place back.

That is all LH could do and the only way he could get away from any penalty, was 3b - and even that was punished. He couldn't win.

So by doing number 3 he was gaining an advantage, because he should have tried to stay on the track, but he didn't.

Or should they not try to stay on the track, even in difficult situations??

And iirc you don't yield the place you are supposed to yield the advantage.

TBH Lewis shouldn't have passed Kimi so quick as he would have had him easily a bit later on.

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:06

Kitchster_uk said:
Err...yes he DID need to cut the corner. What else could he do? Smash into KR?

You think if it had been a gravel trap there lewis would have went into it?

Should he try to make a pass when he isn't in a good position to do so?

NathanE · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:06

JUMPURS said:
TBH nobody can argue that he does do that or not until we see the data, but McLaren say he 'lifted'. Maybe they are just using that term, but to me lifted means taking your foot of/removing some 'gas', not, just not putting it on quite as hard.

Rubbish.

olv · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:07

JUMPURS said:
but McLaren say he 'lifted'.

Have i missed the link for this little snippet?

all I've seen is that they have telemetry that shows he was 6km/h slower across the line.

Coolasmoo · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:07

JUMPURS said:
You think if it had been a gravel trap there lewis would have went into it?

But there wasnt so whats your point exactly ?

spoonz · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:08

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:08

NathanE said:
Rubbish.

Well unless you work for McLaren or the FIA you don't know how hard he accelerated, if it was full throttle or not.

The only thing that can be told from that video is he didn't lift off.

NathanE · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:08

olv said:
Have i missed the link for this little snippet?

all I've seen is that they have telemetry that shows he was 6km/h slower across the line.

McLaren specifically said he lifted to let KR back in front and that crossing the start line he was 6 km/hr slower than KR proving that he gained no advantage.

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:09

Coolasmoo said:
But there wasnt so whats your point exactly ?

If there was a gravel trap, do you think Lewis would have tried to stay on the race track? Simple question. If he would have, then he didn't need to cut the corner, simple as really.

Glaucus · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:09

Absolutely stupid decision and I'm so angered about it. I'm thinking of giving up on the sport.

JUMPURS · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:10

olv said:
Have i missed the link for this little snippet?

all I've seen is that they have telemetry that shows he was 6km/h slower across the line.

It showed that, having lifted, Lewis was 6km/h slower than Kimi as they crossed the start/finish line.

Nobody can hear the lifting, so nobody will know until the telemetry is shown.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70404

gord · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:11

JUMPURS said:
the FIA say he didn't need to cut the corner, which he didn't.

I honestly dont know what race you or the FIA have been watching. But after watching it several times I actually believe Hamilton does try to get back in behind the Ferrari.

This is what I have been watching. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74TZngbIS9I

Pay very close attention to 59 seconds in. Hamilton is alongside Raikonnen and it only takes someone with sight to see that he visibly slows and sticks to Raikos side trying to get it back in behind the Ferrari before realising he cant and breaking left before he hits that green stuff and ultimately the side of the pit lane wall.

Also, I think we need some more visual facts.

Lets see,

A) Hamilton is in front entering the corner, albeit on the outside.
B) Both cars lock their front wheels under braking.
C) Hamilton holds a position on the outside of the track.
D) Hamilton is not allowed to keep this position because of Kimi utilising all of the left side of the track.

So, who is it that outbrakes themself? Hamilton, who can hold his position on the outside of the track. Or Kimi, who I am giving benefit of the doubt to in that he had to use that part of the track too.

Kitchster_uk · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:12

JUMPURS said:
You think if it had been a gravel trap there lewis would have went into it?

Should he try to make a pass when he isn't in a good position to do so?

Yes he would have I would imagine and he was 3/4 of a car length infront at the corner. KR left zero track for LH to go on. If you'd ever driven a track, you'd know that, once KR scythed across the line, LH was already turning into the corner and harsh braking could have caused an accident. Let's out your immense knowledge behind this. What would you have said I LH had braked to be a good boy and keep on track and by doing so had clipped KR, spinning both out? Take your red glasses off and read the SIMPLE facts:

1) LH was 3/4 of a car length A-H-E-A-D at the start of the complex.
2) KR was 3 car lengths A-H-E-A-D crossing the line.

In any logical form, can you tell us how losing the neck end of 4 car lengths constitues an advantage, unless you're an utterly Ferrari-blinkered blithering idiot???

knip · 7 Sep 2008 at 21:12

AcidHell2 said:
Absolutely stupid decision and I'm so angered about it. I'm thinking of giving up on the sport.

But then the FIA would have won and would just have one big massive fan club of Ferrari supporters.
The other teams need support more than ever, especially (as they are the other ones doing well at the moment) McClaren.
It seems the FIA would prefer to see them wiped from the face of the planet. Or are they just gutted that McClaren found better talent than Ferrari did for once.