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10GB vram enough for the 3080? Discuss..

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Chuk_Chuk said:
Denoisers allow you to use less samples than you would have used without them. To say that they remove the need for high spp is a vague statement that may not be correct in certain situations (what is a high sample count?). Same with your statement about low SPP.

If your sample count is too low you will end up with a very poor quality image. Literally rubbing vaseline on the screen type quality. The more samples a denoiser has to work with the better the results up to a certain point.

Generally denoisers are good for the last mile type situations. 95% of the image is done and you need to remove those last fireflies in the remaining 5%. Sometimes getting rid of the last 5% can take longer than getting to 95% in the first place.

P.S. Infinite bounces (with limits) is an oxymoron
P.S.S Just because something looks photoreal doesn't mean it is better, especially if that is not what the artist tried to achieve in the first place.
P.S.S.S Materials in CGI have advanced significantly over the past few years, so any attempts at photorealism in the past look dated compared to modern modern material setups.

Edit: If people are interested i can do a comparisons of different sample count on a simple scene so people can see how denoisers work with these different sample counts in an offline render engine.
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Tak the neat video plugin for blender. You can get a great result at 3000 samples, without the need to render at 20000. Thus the whole point. Why the video is called reduce render times by 92%.

7:37 and 7:43 Neat on and off at 3000 samples. This video has already been posted.
 
Chuk_Chuk said:
Denoisers allow you to use less samples than you would have used without them. To say that they remove the need for high spp is a vague statement that may not be correct in certain situations (what is a high sample count?). Same with your statement about low SPP.

If your sample count is too low you will end up with a very poor quality image. Literally rubbing vaseline on the screen type quality. The more samples a denoiser has to work with the better the results up to a certain point.
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The thing is most of the games are using 1spp, 2 if you are lucky. A high sample count that requires very little denoising is in the thousands of spp. :D
Most of the ray tracing is done through the denoising and not the power of RT units. It is an approximation of how the scenes will look like if enough rays are casted.
 
zx128k said:
Tak the neat video plugin for blender. You can get a great result at 3000 samples, without the need to render at 20000. Thus the whole point. Why the video is called reduce render times by 92%.

7:37 and 7:43 Neat on and off at 3000 samples. This video has already been posted.
Click to expand...
The number of samples needed to complete an image is dependent on a whole load of parameters such as, is it indoors or outdoors, HDRI used, the size of lights as well as how many of them are in the scene, material used, volumetrics etc...

In this scene and in other scenes that are very similar to his scene it will cut the render time by 92%. That is all you can conclude in absolute terms
 
10GB will be fine for 4K in the vast majority of cases for a while yet. The extreme outlier cases where it can be an issue can be dismissed for the massive majority of users.
 
zx128k said:
Most people have a RTX 2060 6GB or 1060 6GB via https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/ 10GB not enough seems like a very first world issue.
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+1


Wrinkly said:
And all that extra cash :D
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;)

So far from the sale of my 3080 I have a RTX 3070, Ryzen 5900X, a gaming laptop (4800H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM) and still have money left over :D


ICDP said:
10GB will be fine for 4K in the vast majority of cases for a while yet. The extreme outlier cases where it can be an issue can be dismissed for the massive majority of users.
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Yep. Hell, even 8GB will play 99% of my steam library just fine.

2080Ti performance for £480 delivered, brand new too with fresh 3 year warranty, not some second hand card :D
 
Chuk_Chuk said:
The number of samples needed to complete an image is dependent on a whole load of parameters such as, is it indoors or outdoors, HDRI used, the size of lights as well as how many of them are in the scene, material used, volumetrics etc...

In this scene and in other scenes that are very similar to his scene it will cut the render time by 92%. That is all you can conclude in absolute terms
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https://research.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/pubs/2017-07_Spatiotemporal-Variance-Guided-Filtering://svgf_preprint.pdf

With the achieved performance and quality of our fi€lter, we have signi€cantly narrowed the performance gap limiting the use of path tracing in real-time graphics, presenting what we believe is the €first practical real-time reconstruction €filter operating on just a single path per pixel. The quality improvements of SVGF stem from its reliance on our spatiotemporal variance estimate, which we use as an imperfect proxy for per-pixel variance. We use our estimate to control a spatial wavelet-based €filter, which hierarchically fi€lters color aswell as our variance estimate. ŒTherefore the reconstruction error, which is highest where the variance estimate is imprecise, is kept local, and the reliability of the reconstruction grows with each iteration. Consequently, SVGF is able to achieve a much higher quality of reconstruction as compared to previous work. We believe our work represents a signi€cant step in the exploration of the large design pace of non-linear spatiotemporal reconstruction, and we wish to continue exploring more algorithms in this area that are faster, higher quality, and free from artifacts discussed in Section 6
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This lead to NVidia Real-Time Denoiser which was used in Watch Dogs: Legion.

https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/n...best-in-class-denoising-in-watch-dogs-legion/

NVIDIA’S prior denoising solution for real-time ray tracing – SVGF (Spatiotemporal Variance-Guided Filtering) – was introduced in 2017, and is the foundation for several proprietary denoisers being used today. NRD offers better image quality than SVGF, both when stationary and when the camera is moving. Lighting and shadows in NRD are softer and more realistic, and overall performance is increased by roughly 50% (+48.2% for 1080p, +49% for 1440p, and +51.3% for 4K vs the original SVGF implementation).
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Latest.

https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-rt-denoiser

In this topic NVIDIA is going to discuss latest advancements in non-DL based denoising. Basing on previous work from Metro Exodus, a new method has been introduced which is based on recurrent blur too, but it has got a lot of improvements, like: better overall performance, cleaner results, specular denoising support, fast data reconstruction, better bilateral weighting and some others. Besides the algorithm overview the topics will be covered in the talk:n- mipmapping of incoming radiance - is it worth it?n- proper controlling of blur radius to avoid over-blurringn- accurate dis-occlusion detectionn- specular tracking without specular motionn- fast and high amplitude noise free data reconstruction of regions with discarded historyn- exponential versus linear accumulation. Why linear accumulation is better?n- how to compute bilateral weights in spatial passes?n- input signal compression - should it be used or not?n- how to fight with temporal lag
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Current NRD features.

Key Features and Components
  • Fast ray tracing denoising solution
  • NRD is designed to work with 0.5 or 1 ray per pixel
  • Native implementation of the NRD API using engine capabilities
  • Includes three denoisers: ReLAX, ReBLUR, and SIGMA
  • Works with DX11, DX12, and Vulkan compatible engines on Windows 64bit
  • Currently supports the following signals:
    • Diffuse (with embedded ambient occlusion)
    • Specular or reflections (with embedded specular occlusion)
    • Shadows from an infinite light source (sun shadows)
So basically real-time Ray Tracing use denoisers and reconstructs the image.

ReBLUR is a denoiser based on the idea of self-stabilizing recurrent blurring. It is designed to work with diffuse and specular signals generated with low ray budgets. In fact, ReBLUR supports checkerboard rendering, producing reasonable results when casting just half a ray per pixel. Compared to SVGF (Spatiotemporal Variance-Guided Filtering), which was introduced in 2017, ReBLUR offers more realistic lighting with better temporal stability, all while being 50% faster. To see ReBLUR in action, play CD Projekt Red's Cyberpunk 2077 or Ubisoft’s Watch Dogs: Legion on a GeForce RTX GPU. As an additional feature, ReBLUR denoises ambient and specular occlusion signals for free, what can be useful in modern games.
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SIGMA is a fast shadow denoiser. It supports shadows from any type of light sources, like sun and local lights. SIGMA relies more on physically based spatial filtering than temporal filtering, offering minimal temporal lag.
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ReLAX is a variant of SVGF optimized for denoising raytraced specular and diffuse signals generated by RTX Direct Illumination. ReLAX offers substantial improvements to image quality and performance over stock SVGF. Not only does ReLAX preserve lighting details produced by massive RTXDI light counts but it also yields better temporal stability and remains responsive to changing lighting conditions. And while image quality improvements of this magnitude are usually accompanied by a drop in performance, ReLAX is in fact 50% faster than baseline SVGF.
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Q: Can I use NVIDIA Real-Time Denoisers to denoise less than 1rpp signals?
A: Yes. NRD supports checkerboard mode (0.5rpp) if a smaller number of rays per pixel is needed.
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zx128k said:
https://research.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/pubs/2017-07_Spatiotemporal-Variance-Guided-Filtering://svgf_preprint.pdf


snip
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Why did you post links to what appears to be a denoiser for hybrid rendering (in terms of using 1pp)?

Also in the paper in the quote you can clearly see in their image examples that they show, that the denoise algorithm is not fully able to make 1spp look like 4096spp.

It is struggling with shadows and reflections. Seems to cause texture detail to breakdown and can't keep the leaves in one of the scenes crisp.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Haha, like anyone gives a c**p about raytracing :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
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Plenty do. Through to be fair we unfortunately right now we just don’t have the hardware to truly see what it can do.

Besides, if you want to play it like that, one could easily say like anyone gives a crap about 3DMark benches ;)
 
When 8gb vram isn't enough and the 3060 wipes the floor with the 3070

I can still hear Jensen's voice telling us the 3070 is faster than the 2080ti, hahahhaahahha

image-23.png
 
Doom has a texture pool size not quality option and at ultra nightmare it will allocate more to VRAM than 8GB cards have. What are the results if you turn it down and does it have a visual impact?
 
Grim5 said:
When 8gb vram isn't enough and the 3060 wipes the floor with the 3070

I can still hear Jensen's voice telling us the 3070 is faster than the 2080ti, hahahhaahahha

image-23.png
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And how many titles does this happen in? Lol

I got 3 games on my steam wish list coming out this year. Two I know for sure will be fine with 8gb, only one that may require more is Dying Light 2. But with DLSS I doubt even that will be an issue. As for my steam library I think the only game that may want more than 8gb is MS Flight Simulator. Big deal, that is why we have dials, I turn down texture one notch, problem solved. Time flies mate, before we know it we will be on next gen cards which will likely have 16gb minimum for this tier.

Plus Doom is a much better game than Eternal which I found boring and uninstalled after a few hours :D


stooeh said:
Doom has a texture pool size not quality option and at ultra nightmare it will allocate more to VRAM than 8GB cards have. What are the results if you turn it down and does it have a visual impact?
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Nope. Same textures as I recall.
 
Grim5 said:
When 8gb vram isn't enough and the 3060 wipes the floor with the 3070

I can still hear Jensen's voice telling us the 3070 is faster than the 2080ti, hahahhaahahha
Click to expand...

Not really a 4K card though and only the top 2 on that chart, maybe the 2080ti at a pinch, really provide any worthwhile frame rate at that resolution and quality setting.
 
Rroff said:
Not really a 4K card though and only the top 2 on that chart, maybe the 2080ti at a pinch, really provide any worthwhile frame rate at that resolution and quality setting.
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The 3070 can play a ton of PC titles in 4k, as could the 2080Ti before it. "4k card" is just an invented and subjective term.
 
Richdog said:
The 3070 can play a ton of PC titles in 4k, as could the 2080Ti before it. "4k card" is just an invented and subjective term.
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Obviously some games are more demanding than others but on balance games coming out around the same time as this generation of cards or newer increasingly will see the 3070 struggle at 4K - even though it can play many recent or older titles at 4K at great frame rates.
 
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