You've lost yourself
I just took exception to you claiming Hamilton would upstage Alonso under a completely different team environment. To which you seemed to get rather upset.
2008 Belgian GP - Race 13/18
- Thread starter rpstewart
- Start date
- Status
You've lost yourself
I just took exception to you claiming Hamilton would upstage Alonso under a completely different team environment. To which you seemed to get rather upset.
just read this on a site, not sure how reliable
"We look at all our data and also made it available to the FIA stewards," McLaren said in a statement. "It showed that having lifted Lewis was 6kmh slower than Kimi as they crosed the start finish line.
Didn't see that earlier. Just makes the decision even more unbelievable.
El Dazza, remember that when Hamilton was racing Alonso, he did so where the team supported him totally. Alonso wasnt talking to most of the team for a third of the season. Mentally, it was tough for Alonso to peform at his best in this environment.
Hamilton on the other hand, had McLaren's full backing throughout the season.
On top of all this, Alonso had to adapt to a completely different team environment, while Lewis had only ever known one F1 team - McLaren. He had grown up with McLaren, if you like.
At Ferrari, Hamilton will not have any advantage and would have to fight Alonso, fair and square in neutral territory.
I think Alonso vs Hamilton, at Ferrari, would be very close.
The battles involving those 2 drivers were the best that Ive seen in F1 in at least a decade and it was shame that Alonso was relegated to such a poor performing team (Renault). I think we, the spectators, have been deprived of the battle that he could be having with Hamilton, Kimi and Massa.
For the record, I believe Alonso is the best driver currently in F1 (based on 2005-2007), but he can't rely on past performance for long. If Hamilton becomes world champ this year, then Hamilton could thus begin his domination of F1, while Alonso faffs around with poor teams and loses his touch.
Hamilton on the other hand, had McLaren's full backing throughout the season.
On top of all this, Alonso had to adapt to a completely different team environment, while Lewis had only ever known one F1 team - McLaren. He had grown up with McLaren, if you like.
At Ferrari, Hamilton will not have any advantage and would have to fight Alonso, fair and square in neutral territory.
I think Alonso vs Hamilton, at Ferrari, would be very close.
The battles involving those 2 drivers were the best that Ive seen in F1 in at least a decade and it was shame that Alonso was relegated to such a poor performing team (Renault). I think we, the spectators, have been deprived of the battle that he could be having with Hamilton, Kimi and Massa.
For the record, I believe Alonso is the best driver currently in F1 (based on 2005-2007), but he can't rely on past performance for long. If Hamilton becomes world champ this year, then Hamilton could thus begin his domination of F1, while Alonso faffs around with poor teams and loses his touch.
Soldato
You're not wrong there. McLaren was a whole new ball game for Alonso, but at the same time it was Hamilton's debut season. Alonso didn't like his rookie team-mate's consistncey and stunning pace, and ultimately let it get to him.
If those 2 were at Ferrari, it would be absolutely awesome. Not only because of their past, but their incredible pace.
I'd love to see any combination of Hamilton/Alonso/Kubica/Vettel in a Ferrari team together, but that's unlikely. I think they'd take some beating, but nothing would light F1 up more than Hamilton and Alonso back as team-mates scrapping for every last point.
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 Mar 2006
- Posts
- 6,712
Truly disgraceful decision, especially in light of Ferrari's 10,000 euro fine, and no action against Raikkonen despite forcing and trying to force other cars off the road and collide with LH's tyres. They've been too blatant with this ruling and people have rightly see it for what it is. What a ****** joke 
Soldato
me with alesi and berger during 94
been williams (hill, montoya years), jordan (hill again) fans, but ferrari overall since the start of 94.
2 weeks ago i was utterly ****ed off with the media/forum talk about how the FIA help ferrari by not punishing massa, but this weekend while a "good result" just starts to proof other peoples points.
FIA shot themselfs in the foot!
Soldato
Autosport reckons Ferrari didn't put in the complaint. So it does looks rather like muppetry from the stewards.
*sigh*
And once again....
McLaren were blown out of second place in the constructors championship by their incompetence at spying.
That's right. Second place. They got 203 points taken away from them for that, and Ferrari got 204 over the season. The other points were lost by McLaren for an entirely separate reason - namely, the bust-up in Hungary which saw Hamilton get the stewards to penalise his own team mate. But what the hell, right? It got him the win. Who cares that it cost McLaren 15 points, and completely destroyed any chance of a true working relationship between himself, Alonso and the McLaren team? Not his problem.
*****************
Back on-topic....
PitPass made a very good point in one of their post-race articles - we could see two more rounds being run before any decision on McLaren's appeal is reached. Shades of 1976, I'd say. Back then, it was a Brit in a McLaren versus a Ferrari driver just as now. And there were penalties and appeals flying all over the place. But hey, just think how much sweeter winning the championship this year would be now to Hamilton after this monumental injustice!
****edit****
From here. I doubt he's lying - it would be very easy to find out the truth, and what would be the point anyway?
Now, I presume that they did claim that Hamilton gained an advantage by cutting the chicane once they were called up. After all - McLaren would if the positions were reversed. Magnanimity is all well and good, but it can cost you championships (*cough* Moss in 1958 *cough*) and in this day and age you aren't going to see that sort of thing much.
Last edited:
What gets me is people assuming this is Ferrari favouritisim just because the end result favours Ferrari, Im sure we wouldve seen a similar penalty had the car LH overtook been a Renault or a BMW, Dominicali clearly stated that Ferrari did not instigate any protest. I.e. they were happy with the result as it was.
But like everyone else, theyre entitled to their opinion, if they dont agree with Hamiltons race tactics then they are fully entitled to air their views on that.
You want someone to blame, blame Max. Its blatantly obvious whats going on here... Max wants revenge for the sex romp scandal, since he probably believes it was concocted by Mclaren
We've had many Mclaren penalties this year after all...Personally Im not going to justify whether I believe LH was in the right or wrong but I would've been happy with a decision of "racing incident", end of story.
Soldato
I'm interested in why Raikkonen didn't get penalised after he went off the track and kept up speed on the run off area before rejoining the circuit to take hamilton at the next bend? Just watched it again on Youtube and this move seems to be just as bad as Hamiltons IMO. I don't think either move deserved to be punished though and the decision has ruined some of the best racing I have seen in a long time 
Associate
FOR SURE he was quicker but as far as i'm aware, massa didnt spin and loose a position, or go off the track near as much as lewis did. I think massa drove a solid points scoring race and deserved to be on the podium regardless of what the outcome of the stewards decision was.
Soldato
No, he didn't. He did lose that position to Kimi early on due to being a bit cautious in Eau Rouge (and I still think Kimi was a bit naughty barging in on him the way he did, but it was within the rules) but aside from that he drove very well.
In fact, did he go off-track at all yesterday? I know a lot of people were predicting him to go sailing off the track if it rained, but I don't honestly recall him going very far off-line, or straightlining a chicane, or even having a particularly major wobble.
Well, he was on the podium no matter what. It was just a question of how many points he'd be taking away with him to Monza. Now, we get the distinctly unhappy situation of an appeal that will be heard after Monza (and possibly not be decided until after Singapore)....so we won't really know what the championship situation is until then.
Ugh....
Associate
Does anyone here watch the British Touring Car Championship? Especially the last race at sliverstone in the wet. The vauxhalls were pushing cars off all over the road, deliberately running other cars off the track coming out of the last corner, yet they were never penalised. I'm not sure if that sport is FIA policed or if its just local stewards again that make the decisions. So if they can get away with that sort of behaviour then surely no-one can find fault in kimi's right to defend his line through the final chicane and force lewis into abandoning the move.
I actually watched the BBC news last night before i went to bed and the guy reporting on the race result described the reason for the FIA's penalty perfectly.
"Lewis hamilton cut the chicane which then put him in a position to have another go at KR into turn 1" its not about the lift off, or gaining an advantage, the fact is he suffered no disadvantage by kimi blocking him as tbh he should have done. Kimi made a fair move to defend his position. How many times have we seen a slower car manage to keep a faster car behind just by the driver in front making his car "as wide as possible"
I actually watched the BBC news last night before i went to bed and the guy reporting on the race result described the reason for the FIA's penalty perfectly.
"Lewis hamilton cut the chicane which then put him in a position to have another go at KR into turn 1" its not about the lift off, or gaining an advantage, the fact is he suffered no disadvantage by kimi blocking him as tbh he should have done. Kimi made a fair move to defend his position. How many times have we seen a slower car manage to keep a faster car behind just by the driver in front making his car "as wide as possible"
Any advantage LH may or may not have gained was against KR, not FM or NH. If the guy gained no advantage over FM or NH so what logic demotes him to third? I don't believe he gained any advantage of KR anyway for the simple reason that after the chicane he was behind KR and slower so he gained no positional or speed out of the corner advantage.
Soldato
I try to, but it's such a depressing shadow of its former self (much like F1
) that I can barely sit through it these days.We-e-ell....closed body cars are a tiny bit safer to play bumper cars in than open wheelers.
That's racin'. If you don't like the car in front getting in your way, you should do what Niki Lauda once suggested Mario Andretti do - "overtake or **** off". Admittedly, Lauda and Andretti were having a spat over something different (the Brabham Fan Car, Andretti claimed he couldn't follow it because it threw debris from the track at him), but the point still stands - it's not the job of the lead car to pull over and let a faster one by.
I still don't agree with the penalty. And I applaud Hamilton for having a go at getting by Kimi and succeeding. I hope the McLaren appeal is as successful as the overtaking move.
One of the Ferrari's certainly went WAY off at Eau Rouge yesterday well into the run off area and gained a HUGE advantage by NOT using the track (I think both Ferrari's might have but one went nearly to the wall)
Look I know its happened many times over the years and it will again, its NOT only Ferrari who do this, but that run off area HAS to be changed to NOT give an advantage to using it
I still doubt whether Ferrari worded their "adivce/evidence" to the stewards in benefit to anyone other than Massa - IE seeing as KR was out anyway and it wouldnt have made a jot of difference, they could have said " thats life, but nothing was ultimately gained - as KR went off anyway in unrelated circumstance" - Massa was never effected by any of the incidences and yet he ultimately gains even though he was never better than 3rd in the race (allowing for pit stops etc) - obviously apart from the last lap
Im sure Ferrari have pulled this trick before - ie one of their drivers being in the centre of an issue, but Ferrari pull out all the stops so that it benefits the other driver who was completely unaffected. Surely that isnt sporting in any way shape or form (look maybe McLaren have done it too, and if so then sorry I truelly dont recall it - I just really think its wrong)
If KR had come in 2nd, the whole situation of the appeal would feel completely different (although Kimi even in the real race still gained back the lead) but to benefit the driver that wasnt even effected stinks to high heaven
Look I know its happened many times over the years and it will again, its NOT only Ferrari who do this, but that run off area HAS to be changed to NOT give an advantage to using it
I still doubt whether Ferrari worded their "adivce/evidence" to the stewards in benefit to anyone other than Massa - IE seeing as KR was out anyway and it wouldnt have made a jot of difference, they could have said " thats life, but nothing was ultimately gained - as KR went off anyway in unrelated circumstance" - Massa was never effected by any of the incidences and yet he ultimately gains even though he was never better than 3rd in the race (allowing for pit stops etc) - obviously apart from the last lap
Im sure Ferrari have pulled this trick before - ie one of their drivers being in the centre of an issue, but Ferrari pull out all the stops so that it benefits the other driver who was completely unaffected. Surely that isnt sporting in any way shape or form (look maybe McLaren have done it too, and if so then sorry I truelly dont recall it - I just really think its wrong)
If KR had come in 2nd, the whole situation of the appeal would feel completely different (although Kimi even in the real race still gained back the lead) but to benefit the driver that wasnt even effected stinks to high heaven
Soldato
think that about sums it up
- Status