2008 Belgian GP - Race 13/18

Status
Not open for further replies.
sunama said:
I think you are expecting far too much from Hamilton, immediately. Give him time.
Click to expand...

Actually, I never was expecting the world from him immediately. But the way some people talk about him, I start to wonder if maybe I'm wrong and he actually is Christ incarnate....

But seriously - is he a true championship contender or not? I think so, and thus I think it's probably right to hold him to slightly higher standards than a lot of other drivers. And those standards don't include driving into stationary cars in the pit lane when the red light is on and the team are telling you over the radio to hit the damned brakes.

sunama said:
For me, he is the fastest driver in F1 right now
Click to expand...

He wasn't at Bahrain or France ;) But yes, he is indeed quick. And if "quick" was all you needed to be then he'd have been champion last year! But throwing away any kind of points finish in China because he wore his tyres completely out was inexcusable (both from him and his team). And launching himself off the road in Brazil in a pointless overtaking attempt so early on was also inexcusable. After those two races, he deserved to have Kimi sneak up and grab the title.

sunama said:
though at this point, I would put money on Alonso outscoring him, in a neutral team.
Click to expand...

Maybe. But it'll forever remain a hypothetical, because you couldn't have a neutral team with those two in it. Just like McLaren wasn't really a neutral team by the end of the Senna-Prost era there (hence Prost leaving for Ferrari at the end of '89). Hungary '07, after Hamilton got the stewards on his side to penalise Alonso, destroyed any chance of a working relationship between the two IMO.

sunama said:
He just needs to calm himself down a little, when he is in the pit lane and around Alonso - something that I feel he has already done.
Click to expand...

I think he needs rather more than that, personally. Though I won't criticise him for jumping at the chance to get by Kimi when he did - only one top driver in recent memory would have hung back, and that's Prost. Mansell, Senna, Hill, Villeneuve, Schumacher, Hakkinen - all would have done exactly what Hamilton did. Though Mansell might have made the initial maneuver come off right in the first place :D

sunama said:
Providing McLaren can give him a good car next year, I think Hamilton will win the title by a considerable margin next year. He will have had 2 years of schooling in F1, by then and there wont be any (rookie) excuses.
Click to expand...

You don't think that if both McLaren and Ferrari build decent machines, Massa would be in with a shout?

The Times described Massa as the most under-rated driver on the grid. I thought they were exagerating at first....maybe they're right. Seriously guys, what does Massa have to do to earn a bit of respect for his talent?

Win from the second row?
Win from mid-pack?
Win a title?
Two?
Ten?

What will it take?
 
JRS said:
The Times described Massa as the most under-rated driver on the grid. I thought they were exagerating at first....maybe they're right. Seriously guys, what does Massa have to do to earn a bit of respect for his talent?

Win from the second row?
Win from mid-pack?
Win a title?
Two?
Ten?

What will it take?
Click to expand...

Massa is a number 2 driver. Its as clear as that.

He has great talent and skill and has proved it, but his entire career at the top of F1 has been as second fiddle to someone else with more hype around them. Hes stuck in that position where you have to be better than the best to be considered any good. Just look at Barichello. How long did he spend behind Schumacher, and without a win. He was a great driver, with great talents, but in the eyes of Ferrari and most of the viewing public, he was just there to fill the second seat in the team while they pushed Schumacher to win titles. Massa is the same. He can have all the talent in the world, but untill he gets to the number 1 position in the Ferrari team, he will always be considered 'average'.

Luckily for him, Kimi is slipping down and Massa may finally get the number 1 position he deserves. I wonder how Kimi would feel being 'just the other Ferrari driver'.....
 
Skeeter said:
Massa is a number 2 driver. Its as clear as that.
Click to expand...

A number 2 driver that is currently just 2 points (rightly or wrongly, that's the gap as it stands) off the championship lead and a good fistful of points ahead of his exalted current champion team leader.

Some number 2!

Skeeter said:
Just look at Barichello. How long did he spend behind Schumacher, and without a win.
Click to expand...

Barichello joined Ferrari in 2000. He won the German GP that year. So.....I make that ten races behind Schumacher without a win.

Ten whole races. Good God, there's no way he deserved that Ferrari seat is there?!

Skeeter said:
He was a great driver, with great talents, but in the eyes of Ferrari and most of the viewing public, he was just there to fill the second seat in the team while they pushed Schumacher to win titles. Massa is the same. He can have all the talent in the world, but untill he gets to the number 1 position in the Ferrari team, he will always be considered 'average'.
Click to expand...

So, which one out of Senna and Prost was "average" then? Prost was 'officially' team leader in '88 as he carried number 11 to Senna's 12. The next season Senna was leader as he was reigning champion.

I wouldn't have said Massa is carrying number 2 status right now. If anything, the team are rather more behind him than they are Kimi.

Skeeter said:
Luckily for him, Kimi is slipping down and Massa may finally get the number 1 position he deserves. I wonder how Kimi would feel being 'just the other Ferrari driver'.....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bet against Kimi retiring at the end of this year, to be honest....
 
mmj_uk said:
He only ran wide off the track to prevent a crash, Kimi still overtook under a yellow flag condition.
Click to expand...

no not at all that is just silly
lewis was off track kimi was on track you cant stop and wait for someone
when kimi spun on the next corner that was a yellow flag incident lewis passed him
or when kimi hit the wall yellow flags yet everyone passed him
 
Its not just about the team, its about the viewpoint of the public, as its the public that are underrating him. He has spend his entire Ferrari career behind Schumacher and the massively hyped Kimi. He needs to beat them before people will rate him. Thankfully, this year he is.
 
Anders0n said:
Just ignore him mate. Pointless arguing as he'll never take on board you're point of view.
Click to expand...

and your point is? do you have one?

Duke said:
...and if he didn't spin off...?
Click to expand...

but he did twice
see alonso 2005 suzuka precedent was set

timbob said:
Mate, possibly just about the most hypocritical post of the thread so far.

Who exactly is it Hamilton overtook in the chicane incident and was supposed to gain an advantage over?

If Raikonnon's advantage is totally worthless because he spun off, surely Hamilton's supposed advantage is too?
Click to expand...

kimi did not use it to overtake and win the race
lewis did not hard to see the difference is it :confused:
had kimi not hit the wall then there might have been a case but he gained no advantage lewis however did
 
It wouldn't happen but Alonso going to Ferrari will be fantastic news. Anything to stop that vile, smug tit from winning the championship will be great. "I don't get overtaken on the outside" A few laps later....



Right. I am off to sign that petition.
 
Massa is OK, but he doesn't have that wet weather ability that is playing a much bigger part in the sport recently. But that alone shouldn't be the reason he loses peoples respect. I think he has spent the most time pointing the wrong way this season but then again he has the most wins too (well, be default anyway ;))

Massa is a Championship contender, and one I really appreciate. We need competent drivers keeping the front of the field on its toes and not a follow-the-leader procession. We also need drivers who have some sort of personality and who aren't complete ***** off the track.

It's a shame Kubica isn't performing as well as he was at the begining of the season. Maybe BMW lost out during mid-season development or somethinhg, but we need more guys like him getting podiums to keep the title race alive.

I really hope next years regs keeps standings much closer and we see some on-circuit action and some wheel to wheel fisticuffs.
 
TheStig1 said:
kimi did not use it to overtake and win the race
lewis did not hard to see the difference is it :confused:
had kimi not hit the wall then there might have been a case but he gained no advantage lewis however did
Click to expand...

You are basically equating this to the offside rule in football. If you are not interfering with play, you can be offside.
FFS if you are on the pitch, you are interfering with play.

Similarly, if Kimi had not stayed off the track, he would probably have been further behind Lewis and the problem with going around the Williams wouldn't have happened the same, and Lewis may have been more than 25 seconds ahead at the end.

Just saying that because he didn't win, he shouldn't be penalised is stupid. If you are proven to have "cheated", you should be penalised.
 
Last edited:
no i am not its not even close to the same
kimi was just as close going into poohon as he was coming out
lewis went wide as well remember
so lewis double cheated? ok more penalty for him
 
Having spent 2 days on that bank, outside that corner where Kimi 'cheated' by going round the outside of the track, and having walked back up the hill on the track, I can say that I wouldnt want to cross the green stuff. Its slick paint, and there is a metal drain running the full length. Driving on that in the wet it risky to say the least. If anything, its Lewis's fault for crossing back over, not just driving round the outside like Kimi. And to be honest, its not like it was a concous effort, They had both understeerd wide in the rain, and were just going back on track.

I dont see how this has any effect on anything.
 
TheStig1 said:
kimi was just as close going into poohon as he was coming out
lewis went wide as well remember
Click to expand...
Now you're just trolling.

Lewis did go wide but came straight back on. Kimi went around the outside and gained a good 10-15 metres on Lewis as he exited the corner on the run-off wiith better momentum.

The advantage was that Kimi gained ground on the guy in front by driving off track. Sound familiar to something the FIA punished Lewis for?
 
does not sound similar at all so i suggest you are the one trolling so stop it
lewis decided to cut the chicane he made that decision if you think thats the same as sliding off the track in the wet then you are just trolling are you really just trolling?
 
Skeeter said:
I dont see how this has any effect on anything.
Click to expand...

Because as I see it, Kimi was having traction problems with his tires (more than Lewis anyway), and the area outside that corner would have provided him more traction than if he had been on track. Therefore he got a better exit to the corner than he would have normally.

And you are saying that if it is more difficult to rejoin the circuit across the drain cover than continue outside the track, he shouldn't be punished. If it is difficult then you have to slow down and drive carefully.
 
Hang on, are you saying that Kimi should have been punished for sliding off the track and choosing not to join until later? Because thats just utter tosh.

If, however, your saying that Lewis should not have been penalised as sliding off the track in difficult conditions is just racing, and if you gain a few meters then what the hell, then fine.
 
The way i see it is this, Lewis is still leading the championship and McLaren have been give a massive sympathy vote from Joe Public. The FIA however have done nothing to improve their image to F1 fans the world over [except of course ferrari fans]

At the end of the day the whole sport of F1 has come out of this with its image further tarnished and the FIA should be held to blame, Charlie Whiting included.

Whether this incident has a major influence on the final standings of the current season or not, it has been a bad week for F1.
 
Skeeter said:
Hang on, are you saying that Kimi should have been punished for sliding off the track and choosing not to join until later? Because thats just utter tosh.
Click to expand...

But as someone I think said earlier in the thread, the rules state that you will be penalised for driving off circuit, especially when you gain an advantage from doing so.
When it is not your fault that you go off (like Lewis avoiding the Williams), you can't really be penalised, but if it is your fault, either conscious decision, or over driving the conditions, you should be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom