2008 Japanese GP - Race 16/18

IPBA said:
I think the love for Hamilton goes a bit to far on this forum sometimes - I don't debate that the guy's got talent but comeon folks keep things in perspective here.
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The sad fact is that LH fans are much more blinkered than the old MS/Ferrari fans (I never thought that was possible) - you provide them facts/evidence and they still try and deny/refute them...

Its useless to try and have an adult conversation with a few members on this forum unfortunately with Ferrari stigma and their Hamilton bias...

Im not a Ferrari fan but like Kimi both on and off the track since he started in F1 and have countless posts where Ive said the same. Its pretty funny to think that there was a chance when he started that he couldnt be given a F1 Super License considering what hes now achieved - hes attained nothing special, but Ill remember him for years to come and his toilet habits :p...

JRS said:
To be fair, the Lewisteria here is mild compared to other corners of the internet....
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Noted and will be sure to stay a lap behind...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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ps3ud0 said:
When you virtually contradict yourself in the same post or backtrack its hard to take you seriously - its not a 'dig', its just an opinion that sometimes you do post some rubbish. If you really are offended perhaps its not the best place to post on a public forum...

When youve decided your opinion tell me and Ill do my utmost to seemingly oppose it - thats all Im here for :rolleyes:

As Ive said before you do talk some occasional sense but you have to constantly separate the wheat from the chaff...
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You highlighted what you believed to be a contradiction and Ive explained why it wasnt.

There are no contradictions.

Taking "diggs" at people isnt the way to win a debate or change the others' opinion.
 
IPBA said:
I think the love for Hamilton goes a bit to far on this forum sometimes - I don't debate that the guy's got talent but comeon folks keep things in perspective here.
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Its got nothing to do with Hamilton loving.

I actually feel that Alonso, by rights, should've won it. But statistically, as has been pointed out, Kimi won it fair and square.

That still doesnt mean the best driver/package won.

I'd like to see how Ferrari/Kimi would've handled it if they were having to go before the World Council to explain 'Spygate'. Moreover, Alonso was under extreme pressure, when you consider that the feeling at McLaren was that he was going to get fired at any time. The team boss wasnt speaking to him. This effects a driver's mindset massively and given that Alonso has a history of being paranoid, he must've believed that it was him against Hamilton and McLaren.

I'm not taking anything away from Kimi. He won it fair and square. But, had McLaren managed their Spygate situation and their drivers better, I honestly cant see how Kimi would've won the title. At best Kimi wouldve finished in front of Hamilton, but behind Alonso.

Its a pointless debate anyway, Kimi won the title, McLaren were red-faced, they got rid of (arguably) the best driver in F1 and put their full weight behind a driver with only a single year's F1 experience. It was risky and we have yet to see if it was the right thing to do or not. Like I stated earlier, it would've been better if they made Alonso drive for them in 2008, then allowed Hamilton to take over as team-leader in 2009.
 
sunama said:
I'm not taking anything away from Kimi. He won it fair and square. But, had McLaren managed their Spygate situation and their drivers better, I honestly cant see how Kimi would've won the title. At best Kimi wouldve finished in front of Hamilton, but behind Alonso.

Its a pointless debate anyway, Kimi won the title, McLaren were red-faced, they got rid of (arguably) the best driver in F1 and put their full weight behind a driver with only a single year's F1 experience. It was risky and we have yet to see if it was the right thing to do or not. Like I stated earlier, it would've been better if they made Alonso drive for them in 2008, then allowed Hamilton to take over as team-leader in 2009.
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Considering McLaren this year have had quite a normal year by their standards (easily the most reliable engine, no driver in-fighting and very little controversy in the media outside the normal Lewis tabloids) and they still have managed to have a poor F1 season (as Alonso said, just look at the points haul) I think expecting them to have done better last season by managing 'Spygate' better, in hindsight, is a difficult pill to swallow if this season is indicative (and why wouldnt it be?)...

McLarens recent track record just paints them as the bridesmaid and never the bride and their ability to harm their own chances before anyone else has a chance is rife...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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JRS said:
Again - he won more races than Hamilton. He kept his head when Hamilton and McLaren didn't. He was close enough in the points to take advantage of Hamilton and McLaren choking right at the end of the year.

This isn't 'lucking into it'. This is Kimi going out grabbing the title.
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Why the assumption that LH should have won it?

As sunama said... McLaren really was entitled to the title last year. They had the better car for most of the season as well as the best driver. Kimi had major problems in the early part of the season with his brakes. Then the whole spygate affair erupted and the team infighting started.

If McLaren had managed themselves a bit better Kimi wouldn't have won the title. Either LH or FA would have.

It's pretty commonly accepted that Ferrari/Kimi didn't win the titles in 2007... McLaren simply lost them. McLaren have pretty much admitted this themselves too in recent months.
 
It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile (or a spait of poor FIA decisions), winnings winning.

I didn't watch the end of last season. The whole fiasco put me off and I felt that it was engineered for LH not to take it and I reckon it was by his own team and his own mistakes. The circumstances weren't great and winning the title in his first season under that dark cloud wouldn't have been a good start to his career.
 
sunama said:
Taking "diggs" at people isnt the way to win a debate or change the others' opinion.
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Agreed. If pseudo wants a proper conversation then he needs to stop with the silly digs at people just because their opinion on highly subjective matters happens to be different.
 
Dup said:
It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile (or a spait of poor FIA decisions), winnings winning.

I didn't watch the end of last season. The whole fiasco put me off and I felt that it was engineered for LH not to take it and I reckon it was by his own team and his own mistakes. The circumstances weren't great and winning the title in his first season under that dark cloud wouldn't have been a good start to his career.
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To the contrary, it is possible the FIA/Bernie were trying to engineer it so LH won. Just look at the points advantage they allowed LH to continue with into China. If they wanted they could have easily penalised him for the issue behind the safety car in Fuji but decided not to.

Bernie just a few weeks ago expressed his dislike that Kimi didn't really do much for the sport with his title (i.e. media/sponsor events).
 
ps3ud0 said:
Considering McLaren this year have had quite a normal year by their standards (easily the most reliable engine, no driver in-fighting and very little controversy in the media outside the normal Lewis tabloids) and they still have managed to have a poor F1 season (as Alonso said, just look at the points haul) I think expecting them to have done better last season by managing 'Spygate' better, in hindsight, is a difficult pill to swallow if this season is indicative (and why wouldnt it be?)...
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I think you are forgetting that last year they had Alonso. You can't use this season's points haul and compare it directly with last year's. If you lose Alonso, you lose A LOT of points and race wins. Renault found this out first hand in 2007 (which is why they couldnt wait to get him back for 2008) and now McLaren are also discovering this in 2008.

Last year, Alonso said that he arrived to the team and brought with him about 0.4s (or similar). From what I saw in 2007 (ie. the McLaren were improved over 2006 and Renault went backwards for 2007, while in 2008, McLaren have lost the edge, while Renault seem to have gained it), I wouldnt disagree with him.

ps3ud0 said:
McLarens recent track record just paints them as the bridesmaid and never the bride and their ability to harm their own chances before anyone else has a chance is rife...
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They certainly dont do themselves any favours and its been a while since they won the title, even though they have produced decent cars.

I can't believe that they thought that without Alonso, they would be a stronger outfit. That was a mad move, designed simply to make their house a nicer place to work/live, which was contrary to what Ron Denis said originally, in that, 'he wasnt in F1 to play happy families, but to win'. Sorry Mr Denis, but I dont believe you.
 
NathanE said:
Why the assumption that LH should have won it?
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Oh, I don't know....maybe something to do with the fact that he led the frappin' championship from the end of the Spanish GP right up to the final round?

I think it must be the record for the biggest choke in F1 history.

NathanE said:
As sunama said... McLaren really was entitled to the title last year. They had the better car for most of the season as well as the best driver. Kimi had major problems in the early part of the season with his brakes. Then the whole spygate affair erupted and the team infighting started.
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No team is "entitled" to win. They have to, you know, win. Yes, IF McLaren had managed their drivers better and IF they'd not been dumb enough to get caught cheating and IF they'd brought Lewis in to change those knackered tyres earlier in China and IF he hadn't gone skating off the road at Brazil and IF he or the car hadn't screwed up and shut the engine off and IF he hadn't had to run a three-stop strategy there then he would have won the title.

Lot of "ifs"....

NathanE said:
It's pretty commonly accepted that Ferrari/Kimi didn't win the titles in 2007... McLaren simply lost them. McLaren have pretty much admitted this themselves too in recent months.
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And even accepting this, you have to credit Kimi and Ferrari for being there to pick up the pieces when the wheels started to come off the Hamilton/Alonso/McLaren title challenge.

Saying that Kimi and Ferrari lucked into it does them a disservice.
 
sunama said:
I think you are forgetting that last year they had Alonso. You can't use this season's points haul and compare it directly with last year's. If you lose Alonso, you lose A LOT of points and race wins. Renault found this out first hand in 2007 (which is why they couldnt wait to get him back for 2008) and now McLaren are also discovering this in 2008.

Last year, Alonso said that he arrived to the team and brought with him about 0.4s (or similar). From what I saw in 2007 (ie. the McLaren were improved over 2006 and Renault went backwards for 2007, while in 2008, McLaren have lost the edge, while Renault seem to have gained it), I wouldnt disagree with him.
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Well Alonso wasnt in that frame of mind last year with all that was happening and McLaren had effectively put all their eggs in the Lewis Hamilton bucket (why wouldnt they when he had a decent lead in the WDC) so even though I agree Alonso could have been the driving force of the team he was very much neutered.

I definitely think that the relationship between each driver and McLaren was never going to work in harmony from the start - 'SpyGate' was the result of it not the start. McLaren promised too much to one and not enough to the one who they should have supported.

If you honestly think about, having LH as a driver has been a poor decision on McLarens part - I cant see Alonso not winning last years WDC if Hamilton hadnt been there and Alonso would have remained there this year and would have been in contention 'for sure'...

As a very generalised question - what has LH brought to the McLaren team? I agree hes very fast, and a PR god-send, but he seemingly doesnt have any race craft and rarely delivers on-track the composure he shows off-track under pressure. Perhaps it really wasnt time for him to enter F1 (I dont think I believe this, but its a question Ive not really thought of until now)..

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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JRS said:
Oh, I don't know....maybe something to do with the fact that he led the frappin' championship from the end of the Spanish GP right up to the final round?

I think it must be the record for the biggest choke in F1 history.
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LOL. Go easy on the guy - it was only his first season in F1. ;)

JRS said:
And even accepting this, you have to credit Kimi and Ferrari for being there to pick up the pieces when the wheels started to come off the Hamilton/Alonso/McLaren title challenge.
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Yep.

You must also credit Ferrari for pressuring the FIA into doing something about the Spygate drama. They kept the pressure on McLaren, both on and off the track and they folded.
 
sunama said:
LOL. Go easy on the guy - it was only his first season in F1. ;)
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In a car that was certainly the class of the field for the majority of the year, backed by a team who really ought to know how to win by now. Yes, the infighting with Alonso (which was just as much the fault of Hamilton as Alonso) and the distraction of Spygate didn't help him. But even with all that went on, if he'd just been able to keep that car out of the gravel trap in China then he'd have gotten points out of that race and wouldn't have had so much to do in Brazil.

So my mind is unchanged - he and McLaren (mostly McLaren) choked in the worst possible way.
 
And they know it :p hence all the talk of "taking a conservative approach" this time around. Too bad LH was just 'going along' with the PR and not actually doing what his boss told him at Fuji eh? :p
 
Can't believe its Wednesday already - not long til another GP \o/ I love the back to back weekends :D
 
Ascari won it in his third season, it was Guiseppe Farina who won the first F1 WC so he doesn't really count. You could actually argue that Fangio won the WC in his first season at the top level because he didn't compete in any of the pre F1 GPs.

Emmerson Fittipaldi almost falls into the same category, his first WC was has second full season of F1 although he did do 5 races in 1970.
 
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