2012 predictions

Moses said:
Except when you have people going on the track when it's wet (eg. didn't Hamilton do his lap on a wet and oily track? He still beat dry times set by other F1 drivers).
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Hamilton's lap, according to the Clarkson, was a "mildly moist".
Kimi's lap was more impressive as it was medium-wet.

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of resistance on this forum, with regards to acknowledging Vettel's skill.

He tops the times by almost half a second on top gear, and straight away there are a raft of excuses as to why this was.

He dominates 2011 and beats his team-mate by the largest margin of any team-mate in 2011 (this is the important one as Webber was in near-identical kit) and people once again start making excuses.

He won a few races in the Torro Rosso and people make excuses as to how this was not a great achievement.

Guys, I know he is German and you may be a Brit, but this is getting silly now. The guy has got everybody beat (even in an el cheapo saloon). Right now it would appear that I am the only person on these boards who rates Vettel so highly.

I'm bemused.

What will be interesting, is if he becomes a triple world champ in 8 months. How will the naysayers explain this away?
 
sunama said:
What will be interesting, is if he becomes a triple world champ in 8 months. How will the naysayers explain this away?
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If he does it in a car with 0.5 minimum gap again, not a lot. Had Damon Hill continued at Williams with the same advantage he had in 96 he also would have been a triple world champion had he had that gap for 3 years.

He'd also have kept getting poles and fastest laps. I'm not sure that would have made him a great though.

Again it's not his fault the car has been by far the class of the field.
 
sunama said:
I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of resistance on this forum, with regards to acknowledging Vettel's skill.
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Really? I'm not seeing anyone doubt his skill. What I am seeing is a lot of people who acknowledge that the Red Bull car is just as much a contributing factor to his success as his ability is, and thus, it's pretty much impossible to rate him objectively against the rest of the field (comedy TV show hot lap in a saloon car excepted). Sounds perfectly fair to me.
 
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Weebull said:
Really? I'm not seeing anyone doubt his skill. What I am seeing is a lot of people who acknowledge that the Red Bull car is just as much a contributing factor to his success as his ability is, and thus, it's pretty much impossible to rate his objectively against the rest of the field (comedy TV show hot lap in a saloon car excepted). Sounds perfectly fair to me.
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This tbh.
 
Weebull said:
Really? I'm not seeing anyone doubt his skill. What I am seeing is a lot of people who acknowledge that the Red Bull car is just as much a contributing factor to his success as his ability is, and thus, it's pretty much impossible to rate his objectively against the rest of the field (comedy TV show hot lap in a saloon car excepted). Sounds perfectly fair to me.
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+1

He's clearly got the skills, no one can deny that. What is harder to ascertain is how much of a factor the car is having on his results.

In 2010 he had inconsistencies, both technical issues with the car and some really dumb manoeuvres that cost him races – but when his car and his head performed, he did very well.

Last year both his car and his head were incredibly consistent, apart from a couple of slip-ups like Canada, and even when he did make a mistake it only cost him pole, not the whole race.

For me, the thing that will prove Vettel's unequivocal status as one of the all-time greats is if he wins his third season in a row in a car that isn't lightyears ahead of the competition.

I know it became a bit of a cliché last season that 'Vettel can't overtake/he never has to' but I want to see him doing some really hard racing and coming out on top, not time-trialing for the whole race half a lap ahead of 2nd place.

I think Canada last year showed that when he's under pressure he can crack.

What I want to see this season is the other drivers putting him under a lot more pressure and then see how he fairs.

:)
 
sunama said:
Hamilton's lap, according to the Clarkson, was a "mildly moist".
Kimi's lap was more impressive as it was medium-wet.
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I could have sworn JC actually said that about JB's lap not Hamilton's

As said before, its impossible to compare (and no way reflects what Kimi is able to do in comparison to the other drivers this year either - although a good laugh nothing more):)
 
Mr Men said:
Deary me, top gear is now the benchmark for F1 drivers :D
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Nope.

The benchmark is
1. Vettel winning races in a Torro Roso (which his team-mate was unable to do).
2. Vettel winning RBR's first title (in admittedly the class of the field - 1st title is usually the toughest)
3. Vettel winning RBR's 2nd title, once again in the best car, but this time breaking numerous records, but most importantly, beating his team-mate by the largest margin that any team-mate has been beaten, in 2011 (points-wise).
4. Vettel driving a normal saloon car and beating all the dry times, by a considerable margin. (ie. this removes all the excuses of car advantage).

Bear in mind that this has all happened over the last few years. As the years roll on, more evidence shall be put together.

Vettel is basically doing what ever he can to pummel the opposition and at present, is succeeding.

In 2010, I was not convinced about Vettel, simply because he narrowly beat Webber, who I would not place in my top 10 list. However, in 2011, all I can say is, "wow". The guy is fast AND consistent in whatever he drives.

In terms of age vs race wins vs titles won, he is ahead of MSc (statistically the most successful F1 driver, by far).
 
englishpremier said:
But he didn't win the individual event at the Race of Champions did he?
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Was it not Loeb who wins that a lot?

I have read up on this Seb Loeb character and the guy is a God in Touring Car circles.

He has won 8 titles (2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011).

Many believe him to be the most talented driver in the World.
 
Won a race at Torro Rosso, not races :D

No doubt Vettel is very talented, but using top gear as a means to promote him is a bit silly imo :D

Can't wait for him to get his dream drive at Ferrari :D
 
sunama said:
Was it not Loeb who wins that a lot?

I have read up on this Seb Loeb character and the guy is a God in Touring Car circles.

He has won 8 titles (2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011).

Many believe him to be the most talented driver in the World.
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Touring Car? Don't you mean rally?

He is an excellent driver, would be interesting to see what he could do in F1 but I suspect it is a bit like Rossi testing for Ferrari, mostly for publicity
 
Remeber Loeb testing for F1, after checking wiki seems he has quite a few times...

Loeb has had a number of Formula One tests. He first tested for Renault F1 at Paul Ricard in December 2007, in a switch that saw Heikki Kovalainen test Loeb's WRC car. Red Bull, which became a major sponsor of the Citroën factory team during the 2008 season, rewarded Loeb for winning the WRC with a Formula One test in Red Bull Racing's 2008-spec Red Bull RB4. He first drove the car at Silverstone, and then took part in the first official Formula One winter test in Barcelona. Loeb was eighth quickest of 17 drivers.

Loeb continued to set his sights on a switch to Formula One in 2009. Following stories that fellow Frenchman Sébastien Bourdais was under threat at Toro Rosso, Loeb told French newspaper L'Equipe that he was interested in replacing Bourdais at the Red Bull-backed team. He intended to make his F1 debut at the 2009 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix which took place in November, after the WRC season finished, with a view to making the switch full-time for 2010. However, this plan was scuppered when he was not granted an FIA Super Licence, rendering him ineligible to race in F1 for the foreseeable future as he had not done enough circuit racing at lower levels. He had also been in contact with the US F1 Team about a possible drive for 2010.

Loeb has also taken part in an official GP2 Series testing session after the 2009 season, where he drove for the David Price Racing team, finishing last of 25 drivers.
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howler said:
Touring Car? Don't you mean rally?
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Sorry...my mistake.

Has he never tested an F1 car? I was under the impression that it did happen, behind closed doors (so to speak) and then nothing ever came of it.

Surely though, given his talent, he should be able to quickly adapt to F1 and become successful.

Perhaps there are some Rally Fans in this thread who can shed some light on this subject.

In what elite motor racing category has someone won the title for the last 8 years (except for Loeb)? I can't think of anybody. He has also won the race of champions 3 times. I'm not into Rallying, but those stats are mouth-watering.
 
It's crazy someone can dominate like he has, he is also on course for number 9 at the moment too... Surely he ahs to go for at least 10 now :p
 
Isn't it daft that the FIA wouldn't grant him a licence?

In spite of his lack of circuit racing, he's clearly good enough, and has done numourous F1 tests. Kimi got his superlicense despite not competing in any mayor single seaters series. His best was Forumla Renualt UK lol

Would have been great to see both him and Rossi to switch to F1.
 
Rossi's case is slightly different though. Obviously he is the king of motorbikes. But the most important thing is that he is one of the most popular sportsmen in Italy. He is very well-known. So, given that he is doing what he loves, is adorned by his countrymen and is being paid handsomely - why would he switch to F1?

With Loeb, my understanding is that his Rallying exploits have not brought him the same sort of adulation or money. Hence, it would make sense for him to pursue F1.

The FIA must have some other reason, as to why they are not allowing him to compete in F1. Perhaps they feel that if he leaves rallying, that the sport of Rallying would suffer? I do not believe that the (actual) reason is as simple as "not enough circuit experience".

In terms of natural talent, this guy would rank fairly highly. Hamilton and Kimi also rank high in this area.
 
It's also odd that he wasn't granted a super license considering he's competed in several Le Mans - although this may be after he was denied the license.
 
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