2022 mini-budget discussion

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dLockers said:
So which bit do you disagree with or are you just wanting to foam at the mouth a bit? All I said in summary was that the "struggle" at £100k is similar. Everyone needs to tighten their belts. The key difference was the earning potential for £100k earners is significantly reduced due to the stealth 60% tax. The other key difference is the perceived options a £100k earner has (if we ignore the cost to change/sunken cost for a moment).
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Is it yourself earning £100k because if so i do wonder how you managed that when you seemingly can't read, i literally just posted our entire conversation and you're still asking which bit i disagree with! The struggle at £100k is not similar, it's a country mile away from the struggle people on NMW, pensions, the disabled are facing, as you've been repeatedly told someone on £100k can make choices, they have a much more belt to tighten.

Yes the earning potential for someone on a £100k is reduced but they're still earning more than the vast majority of people, they may not be earning more in percentage terms for X amount of extra work as someone else does on NMW but they're still earning a damn site more. Someone on a £100k is earning something like £50 ph after tax that's about £20 ph, someone on NMW has to work at least least twice as hard, they have half the earnings potential.
 
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I suspect the broader point is that on those higher incomes, 100k etc (but not in the millions) can still feel the pinch. Look at house prices in London, a million doesn't buy much, relatively speaking.

Yes, this is different to someone struggling on the breadline etc but it's still not nice is it? I'm sure people will move and 'downgrade'. Which is OK but it's hardly the sign of good times is it? Having said that, cutting tax for the high earners at this time clearly wasn't the correct move.

Either way, the real concern is here is how many u turns will the current government make in the coming 2 years? How many have we had in just the last 2? It's bonkers. I appreciate admitting they've made a genuine mistake but these u turns are not all down to that...
 
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sigma said:
I suspect the broader point is that on those higher incomes, 100k etc (but not in the millions) can still feel the pinch. Look at house prices in London, a million doesn't buy much, relatively speaking.

Yes, this is different to someone struggling on the breadline etc but it's still not nice is it? I'm sure people will move and 'downgrade'. Which is OK but it's hardly the sign of good times is it? Having said that, cutting tax for the high earners at this time clearly wasn't the correct move.
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Yeah spot on. No violins. And cutting tax where they did even ****** off the £100k club because of the tapering (stealth 60%). It exclusively rewarded those at the absolute top (+£150k) and didn't simplify the tax system at all (+£100k gross earners need to do a self assessment which is a ball ache for the employee and HMRC/ unless you plan meticulously you will always over/under pay).
 
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sigma said:
I suspect the broader point is that on those higher incomes, 100k etc (but not in the millions) can still feel the pinch. Look at house prices in London, a million doesn't buy much, relatively speaking.

Yes, this is different to someone struggling on the breadline etc but it's still not nice is it? I'm sure people will move and 'downgrade'. Which is OK but it's hardly the sign of good times is it? Having said that, cutting tax for the high earners at this time clearly wasn't the correct move.

Either way, the real concern is here is how many u turns will the current government make in the coming 2 years? How many have we had in just the last 2? It's bonkers. I appreciate admitting they've made a genuine mistake but these u turns are not all down to that...
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Yes and (afaik) no one is denying that. What people are saying is that those on higher incomes are afforded more choices, they may well face difficult choices what with inflation / interest rate rises but they're in the fortunate position that they can make those choices. People lower down the pay scale often are not given those choices.
dLockers said:
Yeah spot on. No violins. And cutting tax where they did even ****** off the £100k club because of the tapering (stealth 60%). It exclusively rewarded those at the absolute top (+£150k) and didn't simplify the tax system at all (+£100k gross earners need to do a self assessment which is a ball ache for the employee and HMRC/ unless you plan meticulously you will always over/under pay).
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The tax system has been FUBAR for ages...so there's that i guess. I'm not sure scraping the 45p rate would've been where i would've started in making it better.
 
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Murphy said:
Yes and (afaik) no one is denying that. What people are saying is that those on higher incomes are afforded more choices, they may well face difficult choices what with inflation / interest rate rises but they're in the fortunate position that they can make those choices. People lower down the pay scale often are not given those choices.

The tax system has been FUBAR for ages...so there's that i guess. I'm not sure scraping the 45p rate would've been where i would've started in making it better.
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In short, we're (mostly) all screwed! Just some more than others.
 
dLockers said:
You're right, and please don't think I am asking you to cry a river -- but one final attempt at explaining the 100k issue -
* Bills go up by an unpredictable amount
* Mortgage rates go up at an unpredictable pace

Person below £100k has "options" that person on 100k doesn't e.g. overtime. Person on £100k gets taxed approx. 60% on every £1 over £100k, AND if they have kids, immediately lose/need to pay back the £2k childcare allowance.

I did the maths - £100k -> £106k is a net "£200" in your pocket after tax and paying 'benefits' back. That means it costs £5,800 to unlock an extra £200 (FOR THE YEAR).

So say you earn £5,200 a month and you are slammed on mortgage because you've cut your cloth according to your salary (go look up a post @Scam made to hypothetical breakdown a £100k earners salary, post a big mortgage), and then you get a "one two" punch with mortgage and utilities -> you would need to earn SUBSTANTIALLY more to cover your outgoings, or simply go broke. Folk on £100k are in a rock and a hard place because "in theory" they are loaded, but in reality, the struggle is just different. Yes, they could live in a low cost of living location, and most do - to offset the cost of childcare - but it soons comes back as most £100k roles will expect some level of mobility at the employees expense.

It isn't easy to be on £100k and the "top yourself up" by enough to make a meaningful difference each month. People in that bracket are helpless to substantial price rises, unless they do what nobody on any tax brackets wants to do - up sticks, move, gentrify a dump and then price out the locals. All because the taxation at £100k is unfair and disproportionate.

As I said before, the tapering allowance changes behaviours and doesn't help taxation at all - because people simply top up their pensions and/or get an electric car. Net receipts for the government down, net receipts for the person down --- the only beneficiary is the pension providers.
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Spot on well said!
 
413x said:
But if you're on 100k and sensitive to mortgage price rises you've over extended yourself right?

That's what everyone gets told who struggles with base rate rises.

"oh you should have planned for that"



I don't think anyone will convince me 100k isn't a lot. I can accept if it requires a central London job it isn't a bed orlf roses until you retire (and can down size) but it certainly isn't a struggle. I expect most put up with it for the future. Having that house worth million +. I having that full pension.

So even if it isn't luxury now, you're planning for later.
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Ahh so sorry i did not plan for us to leave the EU, plan for a pandemic outbreak that lasted aprox 2 years and planned for a war between ukraine and russia. Sorry my bad.
 
Murphy said:
The tax system has been FUBAR for ages...so there's that i guess. I'm not sure scraping the 45p rate would've been where i would've started in making it better.
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100%... I have no idea why that was even an idea. I don't understand how dumb HMRC must be to think cutting off a rate when you earn over £150k was "simplifying" things either. Binning the tapering would have made a lot more sense.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Devil's advocate here...

Not every single person earning under 100k can "top" up with overtime either, I am on way less than 100k on my PAYE job and i don't get overtime.

I can see you are trying to illustrate that due to the tax bracket, an increase in gross wage for 100k+ doesn't yield the same as someone on say 25k salary a year for say 1% increase (not done the math....but i don't think so). However.....the person at 100k salary has a heck a lot more options in lifestyle choices perspective than someone on 25k.

I know given the choice...no one here would choose the 25k job.
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The point is not that someone on 25k struggles less than someone on 100k. It is the fact that many at 100k struggle too for various kinds of reasons.

As i said and many here. people earning 100k are not sitting in a 5 bedroom hosue in zone 1/2 in london and drive a ferrari.

And many here seem to think that
 
If people on £100k pa are struggling then they need to get rid of the expensive Sky TV, Fibre Broadband, Netflix subscriptions, stop smoking, drinking in pubs and sell their widescreen TVs.

Maybe stop buying expensive avocados and latte's

That's how this works right?
 
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jonneymendoza said:
The point is not that someone on 25k struggles less than someone on 100k. It is the fact that many at 100k struggle too for various kinds of reasons.

As i said and many here. people earning 100k are not sitting in a 5 bedroom hosue in zone 1/2 in london and drive a ferrari.

And many here seem to think that
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No, no one here think that.
What we are saying is that if you are earning £100k, you’ll be able to cut back. Those earning much less have already cut back and many have nothing less to cut back on.
 
spaggyboy said:
If people on £100k pa are struggling then they need to get rid of the expensive Sky TV, Fibre Broadband, Netflix subscriptions, stop smoking, drinking in pubs and sell their widescreen TVs.

Maybe stop buying expensive avocados and latte's

That's how this works right?
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With so many things required for online these days, tax forms, dvla...
 
spaggyboy said:
If people on £100k pa are struggling then they need to get rid of the expensive Sky TV, Fibre Broadband, Netflix subscriptions, stop smoking, drinking in pubs and sell their widescreen TVs.

Maybe stop buying expensive avocados and latte's

That's how this works right?
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Last i heard, its the energy prices and mortgage rates amongs otehr things that have shot up in stupid numbers.

And yea lets get rid of fibre broadband meaning those who earn 100k wfh cant anymore lol.

Netflix etc aint even that expensive and will probably just save u 100 quid a month if that, whilst increase in electricity etc is way more then that...
 
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