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A Closer Look At Mantle and EQAA In Civilization

What CPU's was you guys using though? reason for this part of the map is its very demanding on the CPU.. Humbug with his aging AMD CPU is struggling in this test on DX but with Mantle it brings in a hole new playing field.
 
humbug said:
So Microsoft said when on the defensive weeks after Mantle was released.

Before that Microsoft were on record as saying that the dubbed DX12 that was in development of the XB1 "was not going to be released for PC"

A change of heart a couple of weeks after Mantle got the limelight?

And then there are the other low level API's, Mac's Metal, OpenGL-Next
Click to expand...

Considering mantle was announced BEFORE the release of the xbox one, and Microsoft are notoriously tight lipped about new products, i find that hard to believe

The earliest commentaryI can find regarding the xbox one version of DirectX and a possibility of it coming to windows is this blog post that says that they Would be bringing lessons from xbox over to PC

http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d/
 
andybird123 said:
Considering mantle was announced BEFORE the release of the xbox one, and Microsoft are notoriously tight lipped about new products, i find that hard to believe

The earliest commentaryI can find regarding the xbox one version of DirectX and a possibility of it coming to windows is this blog post that says that they Would be bringing lessons from xbox over to PC

http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d/
Click to expand...

They are talking about DX11.2, which after the release of the XB1 turned out not to be enough as the PS4 beats it hands down.

It was after that MS said they would go back to the drawing board with what Anand (i think it was) dubbed DX12, 'that' MS said would not be available on PC, DX11.2 is, right now.

Its actually further proof that there was no such thing as DX12 in development before Mantle.
 
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It must be costing MS a lot of money rushing out D3D12 and starting from scratch after Mantle was announced.

I wouldn't like to be a guinea pig for that rush job. Imagine the bugs it's gonna have in the first games.
 
Interesting thread, very nice to see Mantle in Civ beyond earth getting some good praise from the press there Matt. Some people might think that this isn't the sort of game that needed Mantle, but to me any game that can benefit in anyway shape or form, if the developers want to put in the time to utilise Mantle to see those benefits is worth it.

As for the discussion about DirectX 12, well some people maybe just need to stop and think realistically for a minute.

It comes after 11 to think that Microsoft wasn't going to do a number 12 is rather naïve, as I have said before it would be like being surprised that there will be a FIFA 16.

Was it always going to be low level? Who knows, all I know is that these things take a long time to develop.

Think of it this way, Mantle has been in development for a few years and now after nearly a year it is in a handful of games and in my opinion starting to pick up some momentum. Now this is Mantle that only has to work with a comparatively small set of hardware (the AMD GCN series cards) when compared to DirectX that will have to work with a much larger set of hardware (Just about every GPU and APU made from now till god knows when, AMD, Nvidia, Intel and not forgetting the mobile market) You really think Microsoft only just recently started on it (a year ago). Take the Xbox one, that has been in development for at least a good few years, I would imagine that somewhere in its past, between those rough ideas being scratched out on paper and what we have now they thought of how the low level console API could maybe be used for more than just the console. Who knows maybe it was the DirectX team going to the Console team and saying 'hey how about we use the new DirectX on the console as well' Who knows.

One thing that you can be sure of is that ever since October 22nd 2009 when DirectX 11 was launched to the public, somebody somewhere at Microsoft was thinking about the next version.

Oh dear I seem to have gone off track a little, anyway the point being (well two points actually)

Point one: DirectX 12 was undoubtedly being developed before mantle was announced and anyone thinking otherwise needs to remove the rose tinted specs.

Point two: It is good to see Mantle being used in other sorts of titles, as there is so much more to it than just giving more frames per second.
 
Thanks
humbug said:
They are talking about DX11.2, which after the release of the XB1 turned out not to be enough as the PS4 beats it hands down.

It was after that MS said they would go back to the drawing board with what Anand (i think it was) dubbed DX12, 'that' MS said would not be available on PC, DX11.2 is, right now.

Its actually further proof that there was no such thing as DX12 in development before Mantle.
Click to expand...

Nope, this was way after 11.2 was already out, you're just making stuff up now

Dx 11.2 was announced June 2013, the link i posted was october 2013

The xbox version of dx is called dx11.X the X standing for xbox, they are not talking about 11.2

This is hilarious stuff

Now, what we do know is that Amd threw a hissy fit in April 2013, saying that there would NEVER be a DX12, so it seems fairly obvious that Amd were trying to push mantle on them by that point, but MS responded by saying that they were dedicated to PC gaming, DX11.2 being announced a couple of months later
It seems obvious that Amd being involved in developing dx11.X that there are some bits of mantle dna in dx12, but i dont think it is entirely fair to assume that dx12 wasnt already a foregone conclusion, or that dx12 is a direct ripoff of mantle

Both mantle and dx12 owe their origins to dx11.X, so in that sense you can call both a collaboration between AMD and MS, as mantle also borrows heavily from previous dx versions with things like HLSL

It also seems fairly obvious that mantle, at its core, was designed for a specific subset of Gcn1.1, as demonstrated by the continuing problems with older and newer cards, i can quite see why MS wanted to take a bit more time over it and make something work, rather than rushing it out as a PR exercise for AMD
 
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andybird123 said:
Thanks

Nope, this was way after 11.2 was already out, you're just making stuff up now

Dx 11.2 was announced June 2013, the link i posted was october 2013

The xbox version of dx is called dx11.X the X standing for xbox, they are not talking about 11.2

This is hilarious stuff

Now, what we do know is that Amd threw a hissy fit in April 2013, saying that there would NEVER be a DX12, so it seems fairly obvious that Amd were trying to push mantle on them by that point, but MS responded by saying that they were dedicated to PC gaming, DX11.2 being announced a couple of months later
It seems obvious that Amd being involved in developing dx11.X that there are some bits of mantle dna in dx12, but i dont think it is entirely fair to assume that dx12 wasnt already a foregone conclusion, or that dx12 is a direct ripoff of mantle

Both mantle and dx12 owe their origins to dx11.X, so in that sense you can call both a collaboration between AMD and MS, as mantle also borrows heavily from previous dx versions with things like HLSL

It also seems fairly obvious that mantle, at its core, was designed for a specific subset of Gcn1.1, as demonstrated by the continuing problems with older and newer cards, i can quite see why MS wanted to take a bit more time over it and make something work, rather than rushing it out as a PR exercise for AMD
Click to expand...

Nope, this was way after 11.2 was already out, you're just making stuff up now

Dx 11.2 was announced June 2013, the link i posted was october 2013

The xbox version of dx is called dx11.X the X standing for xbox, they are not talking about 11.2
Click to expand...
Did you read the article you posted?

They are clearly talking about DX11.2 feature sets for the XB1 and Windows 8.1, the article was written before Windows 8.1 was released to the general public, its about the XB1 and Windows 8.1.

Both mantle and dx12 owe their origins to dx11.X, so in that sense you can call both a collaboration between AMD and MS, as mantle also borrows heavily from previous dx versions with things like HLSL
Click to expand...
I don't see your point here, technologies are developed around hardware capability, because MS and AMD, Nvidia developed HLSL for DX AMD have no right to use a similar system in Mantle?

It also seems fairly obvious that mantle, at its core, was designed for a specific subset of Gcn1.1, as demonstrated by the continuing problems with older and newer cards, i can quite see why MS wanted to take a bit more time over it and make something work, rather than rushing it out as a PR exercise for AMD
Click to expand...
So thats how you would explain why a company like AMD with very constrained finances managed to develop a better API than what currently exists, from scratch, in less than half the time its apparently taking Microsoft.
This if we are to take your theory that Microsoft had DX12 in development before Mantle and its AMD reacting to Microsoft.

I don't buy it, i deal with facts, not a series of increasingly far fetch theories made up to fit an agenda based argument.

Your own link talks up the Windows 8.1 / original XB1 API, if has nothing to do with DX12, DX12 did not exist, what you used as proof of DX12 before Mantle is actually DX11.2 and after Mantle was known about, its mention in, again, that article.

DX12 is not a 5 year development cycle, its 2 years as Mantle was, MS just had not start it until after Mantle was released, before that they were too busy pinning their hopes on DX11.2 with Mantle an untested entity.
 
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Right, Xbox one was released in november 2013, it had launch titles, those games had to start development around 2 years prior to release, the API had to be ready for them, so another 2 years, by your numbers DX11.X had to have started development in 2009

Mantle is at least 2 years in and still in beta

From the article i posted
. We’re also working with our ISV and IHV partners on future efforts, including bringing the lightweight runtime and tooling capabilities of the Xbox One Direct3D implementation to Windows, and identifying the next generation of advanced 3D graphics technologies.
Click to expand...

So yeah, in october 2013 MS and nvidia say they are and have already been working on the next version of DX, you have proof that isnt true?

I cant see how mantle can be anything other than a logical extension of having worked on a low level API for gcn hardware, aka the xbox 1 api aka DX11.X, which must have started work at least 3 years prior to xbox one release at bare minimum, so mantle is now at least 4 years old, at its core

That isnt far fetched, its a basic requirement for xbox one to have been released with a low level api and working launch titles

DX11.X is DX11.2 WITH low level close to the metal access, or in other words the basis for DX12
 
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andybird123 said:
Right, Xbox one was released in november 2013, it had launch titles, those games had to start development around 2 years prior to release, the API had to be ready for them, so another 2 years, by your numbers DX11.X had to have started development in 2009

Mantle is at least 2 years in and still in beta

From the article i posted

So yeah, in october 2013 MS and nvidia say they are and have already been working on the next version of DX, you have proof that isnt true?
Click to expand...

Mantle TWO YEARS IN???

Mantle is a low-level rendering API targeted at 3D video games.[4] Mantle was originally developed by AMD in cooperation with DICE starting in 2013.[1] Mantle was designed as an alternative to Direct3D and OpenGL, primarily for use on personal computers, although suitable hardware is fully available in the Wii U, PlayStation 4 and the Xbox One.[1][5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantle_(API)
 
andybird123 said:
Right, Xbox one was released in november 2013, it had launch titles, those games had to start development around 2 years prior to release, the API had to be ready for them, so another 2 years, by your numbers DX11.X had to have started development in 2009

Mantle is at least 2 years in and still in beta

From the article i posted

So yeah, in october 2013 MS and nvidia say they are and have already been working on the next version of DX, you have proof that isnt true?

I cant see how mantle can be anything other than a logical extension of having worked on a low level API for gcn hardware, aka the xbox 1 api aka DX11.X, which must have started work at least 3 years prior to xbox one release at bare minimum, so mantle is now at least 4 years old, at its core

That isnt far fetched, its a basic requirement for xbox one to have been released with a low level api and working launch titles

DX11.X is DX11.2 WITH low level close to the metal access, or in other words the basis for DX12
Click to expand...

According to Microsoft DX12 is not Mantle, they seem to go out of their way to distance themselves of anything to do with Mantle, even teaming up with rivals Nvidia on stage in showing off Forza 5 on a GTX Titan to reinforce Nvidia's stage dance about how Microsoft and Nvidia are the great partners to bring us the great API.
An utter joke as Forza 5 runs, and will only ever run on an AMD APU.
Both MS and Nvidia's noses were so obviously bent out of shape.

AMD's man summed it up when he came on stage with a smirk and simply said something along the lines off "we don't always agree but we are all working together to bring you DX12"

Anyway, you are right, MS can't do any of this without AMD, its AMD's architecture.
 
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