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I had pro-choice until birth, but as medical is off the table, changed it to pro-choice pre-viability.
Poll: Abortion, Roe v. Wade
- Thread starter dowie
- Start date
Soldato
So Texas AG said all abortions now illegal in Texas using a 1920s law still on the books and closed the office for a holiday to celebrate. Providers sue, judges temporarily blocks AG decision but trigger law will soon kick in banning abortions after 6 weeks, which is pretty much an outright ban as most women don't know they are pregnant before 5 weeks.
Also..
Also..
Soldato
Same and the sensible option. Though IMO men should stay the hell out of this decision.
Soldato
Well this post aged well
Although, it wouldn't surprise me if some of these states (looking at you again Texas!) will do their best to legislate some kind of loophole which makes doing so illegal
It's not an outright ban though it is highly restrictive, currently, nearly half of abortions are carried out within 6 weeks, though medical abortions can be carried out until 9 weeks - I suspect in some states you'll see those figures for medical abortions move to the left as in some of the week 7, 8 etc.. abortions will be more urgent and turn into week 5, 6 as lots of women will only have a week or so to quickly get it done.
A 15 week limit (along the lines of the Mississippi legislation that triggered all of this) seems like it would be pretty sensible and cover the vast majority of abortions.
On the plus side, 79% of abortions are within 9 weeks, that's the period where medical abortions can be done i.e. via a pill - in theory, you don't necessarily need to travel for that.
Soldato
That graph shows 57% fall outside 6 weeks. Throw in some crap like having to have more than 1 ultrasound a week apart or performed by the same medical professional and they'll easily push past that 6 week limit for a lot of women. I expect Texas to lower the time limit further or just outright ban abortions after November.
Is there known to be legislation planned to fully outlaw (elective) abortions in Texas or to introduce further restrictions on abortions in the state or is this just speculation?
Commissario
One of the things to note is that a 6 week abortion is basically within two weeks of missing a period.
A pregnancy test's result is based off the last period you have had by default, which makes it very hard for a lot of women, especially younger ones to fit in that 6 week timeframe (by the time you're a day late you're officially 4 weeks pregnant), as many will have quite irregular ones especially from memory if you're young, have certain health issues, on certain medications, or simply in some cases athletic..
So effectively a 6 week limit is a ban to most intents and purposes as it means you have to both have a regular menstrual cycle, and take a test within a day or two of being "late" (or better yet, do one every day), then if you're getting the pill from your doctor, get an appointment with them and hope they'll prescribe it within the next week or so, or if you have to get it by mail, hope that it arrives quickly.
It's worth noting that most of these abortion laws that have been proposed/put onto the statute books are more severe than they were pre Roe vs Wade, and that the "Christian right" churches in the South IIRC changed their definition of when a baby got a soul about 6 years after that decision as part of their campaign to ban abortions*.
The Missouri one was at first specifically going to ban an abortion in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it only got changed when pretty much everyone with a clue about pregnancies and complications basically screamed "you're nuts"**, so instead they changed it so that "abortions" are banned until the woman's life is immediate danger - so with an ectopic pregnancy that apparently means wait until the woman is bleeding out into her belly, then get two doctors who must not be from the same "providing network" (to avoid collusion) to agree that it's needed. In the meantime the woman is dying and even if she survives is likely to have far more issues every carrying a baby to term in the future due to the damage being done. What should be a simple, safe procedure becomes a major trauma event requiring critical care measures and potentially lots of blood transfusions as it will have to be left until the patient is going into shock/crashing from blood loss to comply with the law sufficiently to avoid some ambitious Republican DA from pressing charges on the doctors.
Basically it's "*** women, they're expendable".
*And I've said it before, this is purely a Evangelical/Right Wing Christian belief in the US, it utterly ignores the fact that it's not popular with most of the population, and that it completely poops all over the fact that both Islam and Jewish faith/law puts the needs of the mother first, in the case of the Torah it's an explicit requirement that you protect the mother and obey her will in the matter (something they settled somewhere over a thousand years ago). Apparently a number of Jewish groups are probably going to be pushing legal challenges to the bans based on the fact that it's suppressing their religious beliefs, not that that will do any good, as the current US supreme court is all about Religious Freedom but only when it applies to the the one they follow and think the US should force everyone else to do the same.
**I can't remember the figures, but something like 1% of pregnancies result in an ectopic pregnancy and are usually only discovered at the first ultrasound, which is usually after the first 6 weeks.
A pregnancy test's result is based off the last period you have had by default, which makes it very hard for a lot of women, especially younger ones to fit in that 6 week timeframe (by the time you're a day late you're officially 4 weeks pregnant), as many will have quite irregular ones especially from memory if you're young, have certain health issues, on certain medications, or simply in some cases athletic..
So effectively a 6 week limit is a ban to most intents and purposes as it means you have to both have a regular menstrual cycle, and take a test within a day or two of being "late" (or better yet, do one every day), then if you're getting the pill from your doctor, get an appointment with them and hope they'll prescribe it within the next week or so, or if you have to get it by mail, hope that it arrives quickly.
It's worth noting that most of these abortion laws that have been proposed/put onto the statute books are more severe than they were pre Roe vs Wade, and that the "Christian right" churches in the South IIRC changed their definition of when a baby got a soul about 6 years after that decision as part of their campaign to ban abortions*.
The Missouri one was at first specifically going to ban an abortion in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, it only got changed when pretty much everyone with a clue about pregnancies and complications basically screamed "you're nuts"**, so instead they changed it so that "abortions" are banned until the woman's life is immediate danger - so with an ectopic pregnancy that apparently means wait until the woman is bleeding out into her belly, then get two doctors who must not be from the same "providing network" (to avoid collusion) to agree that it's needed. In the meantime the woman is dying and even if she survives is likely to have far more issues every carrying a baby to term in the future due to the damage being done. What should be a simple, safe procedure becomes a major trauma event requiring critical care measures and potentially lots of blood transfusions as it will have to be left until the patient is going into shock/crashing from blood loss to comply with the law sufficiently to avoid some ambitious Republican DA from pressing charges on the doctors.
Basically it's "*** women, they're expendable".
*And I've said it before, this is purely a Evangelical/Right Wing Christian belief in the US, it utterly ignores the fact that it's not popular with most of the population, and that it completely poops all over the fact that both Islam and Jewish faith/law puts the needs of the mother first, in the case of the Torah it's an explicit requirement that you protect the mother and obey her will in the matter (something they settled somewhere over a thousand years ago). Apparently a number of Jewish groups are probably going to be pushing legal challenges to the bans based on the fact that it's suppressing their religious beliefs, not that that will do any good, as the current US supreme court is all about Religious Freedom but only when it applies to the the one they follow and think the US should force everyone else to do the same.
**I can't remember the figures, but something like 1% of pregnancies result in an ectopic pregnancy and are usually only discovered at the first ultrasound, which is usually after the first 6 weeks.
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may contain swearies
Interesting video from Andrew Callaghan where he interviews some pro-choice people. Suffice to say the level of crazy is well over 9000!
Interesting video from Andrew Callaghan where he interviews some pro-choice people. Suffice to say the level of crazy is well over 9000!
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Soldato
When you have the Texas AG celebrating the complete ban by making it a holiday for his office and immediately saying he will appeal the court decision to block the ban, what does that tell you? Does it sound like the GOP in Texas are going to be reasonable when the man elected to prosecute citizens celebrates a complete ban? Is 6 weeks reasonable when most women won't know before 5 weeks? They are like rabid dogs on this subject and I fully expect them to make further restrictions because that is what these religious fundamentalists want.
Which court decision? It's not clear what you're referring to here?
I assume he is getting confused about the temporary court order for abortions under 6 weeks.
Ah oops, my bad on that one, it does seem like there is still a push for old laws still on the books simply banning abortion in Texas to stand (though there is also a legal argument that they've been abandoned by implication due to the passage of later legislation).
That's not true, see the chart above, 43% of abortions are carried out within 6 weeks. Medical abortions can be carried out up to 9 weeks, I suspect that some of those 6-9 week cases would have a bit more urgency about them in a situation where 6 weeks was the limit.
Obviously, it's not a good situation to be in, it's based on some silly beliefs about a foetal heartbeat or something... but it's not a ban, you'd still get half of the abortions done in such a situation. Pills in the post or trips out of state would unfortunately be needed for the rest.
There's a lot of misinformation around (obviously), even the assertion that ectopic pregnancies are being outlawed whereas a quick cursory read shows there's provisions in place for those scenarios.
Religion isn’t the only factor. You can still questions the morality of abortion without any religious context.
It's not the only factor but it is the overriding factor. And it's the main reason why we haven't seen such legislation in this country, because our Conservative government is not as religion-led as the US's is.
Yes, the Tories did close a lot of the strip clubs in Soho and they did try to get verification on porn sites through credit cards in the interests of 'protecting kids and upholding decency' etc, but I don't believe this had anything to do with religion, it was because those places were easy targets. That was all.
True, in America it has become intertwined more heavily via religion (obviously in America mainly Christianity, but I would expect much support via Islam for abortion either!).
I was simply saying, there is a very legitimate moral dilemma outside of religion. That’s why frankly, I still can’t say I’m firmly in any particular camp on this topic. I broadly support the need to offer abortion via legitimate means up to a certain date of pregnancy. Without question if the mothers life is at risk. Though I find the concept that some are pushing for the right to abortion up until birth, to be frankly disgraceful.
I was simply saying, there is a very legitimate moral dilemma outside of religion. That’s why frankly, I still can’t say I’m firmly in any particular camp on this topic. I broadly support the need to offer abortion via legitimate means up to a certain date of pregnancy. Without question if the mothers life is at risk. Though I find the concept that some are pushing for the right to abortion up until birth, to be frankly disgraceful.
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Interesting to know that birthrates are rapidly declining amoung liberal/left leaning people, while they remain fairly static amoung the christian/catholic families. Suffice to say in a few generations time this entire argument may well be completely irrelevant as society shifts more to the conservative/christian values.
Whats to say that within my lifetime America hasn't split entirely with the country being divided East and West vs the Central Belt.
Whats to say that within my lifetime America hasn't split entirely with the country being divided East and West vs the Central Belt.
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The real "Great Replacement"!
10 seconds in 'uterus havers', this is going to be good
