AMD accused of "Golden Sample" on 290X given to reviewers, retail bought cards throttling

[VincentHanna]

Steam stats attempt to show the breakdown of GPUs in peoples PCs and it has a massive margin of error. On board Intel GPUs and even APUs are recorded as the primary gaming GPU when in fact they aren't. Unless anyone wants to argue that intel has a 16% market share in gaming GPUs?

Steam surveys are done automatically by scanning your PC.

They will only detect an Intel GPU if that is the primary display card. I think you are overestimating this little niche corner of enthusiasts who play games.

A lot of people who own PC's/Laptops and play games are completely ignorant. They think because it has 16GB ram and a large hard drive it should do everything because the PC World man said it would.

I think that stat is accurate.

 

[Steampunk]

According to Sweclockers AMD are set to release a driver fix which increases quiet mode fan speeds and should alleviate the problem but that will mean there are now countless reviews with inaccurate dB levels.

AMD are releasing a driver that makes the fan go by RPM instead of the more vague PWM. They are saying this sorts out the inconsistencies in fan performance/cooling/throttling cause by chip differences.

 

[Deus Ex]

Because Intel didn't do the same thing with Haswell......

True that, luckily the 4670k is still a beast.

 

[mmj_uk]

AMD are releasing a driver that makes the fan go by RPM instead of the more vague PWM. They are saying this sorts out the inconsistencies in fan performance/cooling/throttling cause by chip differences.

We'll see but at the end of the day AMD are shipping a card with an insufficient cooler, given that AMD are not guaranteeing any base clock even those running in Uber mode with a manual fan percentage of 50% may need to increase their fan by 20% or so come the summer (to prevent throttling).

With all of this "up to 1ghz" business and no firm base clock it seems like AMD are shirking the responsibility for cooling and leaving it up to their customers to worry about.

 

[Steampunk]

Yes, I'm disappointed that AMD have gone lowest common denominator on their stock cooling, and left decent coolers for the AIBs. What's annoying is that there are currently no non-stock cooler using cards currently available, which is a big oversight on AMDs part.

 

[Gerard]

Yes, I'm disappointed that AMD have gone lowest common denominator on their stock cooling, and left decent coolers for the AIBs. What's annoying is that there are currently no non-stock cooler using cards currently available, which is a big oversight on AMDs part.

The cooler is one area amd seems to fall on their faces on consistently. God only knows why as there's been complaints for years about them.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Yes, I'm disappointed that AMD have gone lowest common denominator on their stock cooling, and left decent coolers for the AIBs. What's annoying is that there are currently no non-stock cooler using cards currently available, which is a big oversight on AMDs part.

Jesus, when do people lose all ability to reason.

Custom cooling actually takes time to manufacture, it's that simple. No card I can recall and certainly no big new release has ever had custom cooling on launch so where is the oversight?

3rd party cooled Nvidia cards significantly outperform Nvidia stock cooling, including on Titan, 780, 780ti. The first card with a new core and new PCB gets stock cooling and custom versions always take 6-10weeks, always, absolutely always.... did I mention, always?

The 780ti is not a new core, the 780 wasn't a new core, it's the same core as Titan. The 7970 had no custom cooled cards for a couple months, neither did the 680gtx, the 580gtx, the 480gtx, the 280gtx, the 5870, the 4870 or anything else. The 280x does because it IS the 7970 and it already had custom coolers out for it and used the same pcb/core.

Hawaii is the first new core since the 7790, which was the first new core since Titan, the 680gtx and the 7970 in order, none of these cards had custom coolers available day one, neither will the next gen AMD/Nvidia cards(I guess gtx880 and R9 390... R10 290, whatever the heck they are doing with that naming scheme ).

In 6 ish weeks there will be custom cooled versions for anyone that wants them, its the same wait for AMD or Nvidia with new cores.

Titan/780 and likely the 780ti all throttle under gaming on the stock cooler, which people talk up how brilliant it is and how quiet it is.... yet it throttles, So AMD make a quiet mode and it throttles, this is terrible for AMD but fine for Nvidia, they make a loud mode which barely throttles and isn't close to insanely loud, then people turn on the 100% fan and everyone acts like it's the default sound level.

The whole "fine for Nvidia, terrible for AMD" thing is tedious and daft. Third party cooled 780gtx's massively outperform default 780gtx's, they throttle less at stock, they overclock further, they are quieter and the keep the temps down. Why is this fine for Nvidia but AMD make a cooler that has all the exact same attributes(while also not massively overcharging you for the same performance level) and it's terrible?

 

[ubersonic]

Jesus, when do people lose all ability to reason.

/snip

I think you misunderstood the post you were quoting.

 

[andybird123]

The whole "fine for Nvidia, terrible for AMD" thing is tedious and daft. Third party cooled 780gtx's massively outperform default 780gtx's, they throttle less at stock, they overclock further, they are quieter and the keep the temps down. Why is this fine for Nvidia but AMD make a cooler that has all the exact same attributes(while also not massively overcharging you for the same performance level) and it's terrible?

it's not apples for apples though, the AMD cooler is much louder than the Nvidia one at equivalent (e.g. non-throttling) speeds, and the Nvidia card throttles less than the AMD one at stock speeds

in the same vein, lots of people here, who attacked nvidia for throttling or for hot and noisy cards (e.g. the 480, reference 670) are now regurgitating AMD's line about 95C being fine and cheap loud cooler is ok because card is cheap, and throttling is ok because just put up with the noise if don't want throttling

you can't have it both ways, people are entitled to voice their opinion, throwing insults at people for doing so is not ok

 

[tribz]

I'll chip in with official word on this.

Two outlets in hundreds sampled have uniquely reported instances of AMD Radeon R9 290(X) boards purchased in retail that have exhibited an uncharacteristic level of performance variance as compared to press samples issued by AMD. As retail products purchased by almost every other outlet (e.g. Sweclockers) do not demonstrate this phenomenon, we’re working to secure the aberrant board(s) in question for further analysis. In the meantime, we’ve identified areas where variability can be minimized and are working on a driver update which will minimize this variance.

We will be releasing that driver in the next 24 hours to fully correct this behavior by normalizing fan RPMs vs. PWM control. The 290X in Quiet mode should be at 2200RPM, and the 290 should be at 2650RPM. If anyone is seeing fan speeds below that, they are affected by this issue, and the driver will resolve the issue in 24 hours.

//EDIT: All boards should perform similarly to the AMD-issued samples seen in reviews. Period.

Is the new driver out yet?

 

[teppic]

New AMD drivers are always posted here before they appear officially:

http://forums.guru3d.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46

(Usually by just a couple of hours, but still)

 

[LtMatt]

Is the new driver out yet?

Should be anytime between now and midnight tribz.

EDIT

New AMD drivers are always posted here before they appear officially:

http://forums.guru3d.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46

(Usually by just a couple of hours, but still)

This.

 

[Steampunk]

Jesus, when do people lose all ability to reason.

That's uncalled for.

Custom cooling actually takes time to manufacture, it's that simple. No card I can recall and certainly no big new release has ever had custom cooling on launch so where is the oversight?

What about all the new 280/270 cards? They arrived with custom cooling on launch day. Or are you going to tell me they don't count as "new" cards?

Don't you think AIBs have had the specs for quite some time? Certainly enough to build coolers considering there are several third party aftermarket coolers already available that fit the new cards.

It's just a question of not enough chips to start shipping products except with the stock coolers. What makes it worse is it's the same crappy stock cooler that AMD have been using for the last few years, so it's no surprise. AMD should have done better with a new stock cooler.

I'm annoyed because I want a 290, but I can't live with a noisy card, so I'm stuck waiting for non-stock coolers to turn up at some undetermined point in the future instead of being able to spend my money now. I trust that a decent cooler will fix all the noise/heat/throttling issues that are the nature of the product without a strong enough cooling solution.

 

[etched Chaos]

That's uncalled for.



What about all the new 280/270 cards? They arrived with custom cooling on launch day. Or are you going to tell me they don't count as "new" cards?

Don't you think AIBs have had the specs for quite some time? Certainly enough to build coolers considering there are several third party aftermarket coolers already available that fit the new cards.

It's just a question of not enough chips to start shipping products except with the stock coolers. What makes it worse is it's the same crappy stock cooler that AMD have been using for the last few years, so it's no surprise. AMD should have done better with a new stock cooler.

I'm annoyed because I want a 290, but I can't live with a noisy card, so I'm stuck waiting for non-stock coolers to turn up at some undetermined point in the future instead of being able to spend my money now. I trust that a decent cooler will fix all the noise/heat/throttling issues that are the nature of the product without a strong enough cooling solution.

Did you even read his post properly? He stated the 280 was not a new card, just a rebadged 7970 which they already have coolers for (same for the 270 etc etc).

 

[Steampunk]

Here's something we pretty much knew. An update of the TechSpot review:

Update: Based on your feedback, I took the IceQ X2 cooler off the HIS Radeon R9 280X and stuck it on our R9 290 sample. Cooling was dramatically improved. The FurMark stress test maxed out at 76 degrees while the card never exceeded 63 degrees in Crysis 3 and Battlefield 4. So it seems as expected the board partners will be able to solve the heat issues of the reference card.

 

[humbug]

Jesus, when do people lose all ability to reason.

Custom cooling actually takes time to manufacture, it's that simple. No card I can recall and certainly no big new release has ever had custom cooling on launch so where is the oversight?

3rd party cooled Nvidia cards significantly outperform Nvidia stock cooling, including on Titan, 780, 780ti. The first card with a new core and new PCB gets stock cooling and custom versions always take 6-10weeks, always, absolutely always.... did I mention, always?

The 780ti is not a new core, the 780 wasn't a new core, it's the same core as Titan. The 7970 had no custom cooled cards for a couple months, neither did the 680gtx, the 580gtx, the 480gtx, the 280gtx, the 5870, the 4870 or anything else. The 280x does because it IS the 7970 and it already had custom coolers out for it and used the same pcb/core.

Hawaii is the first new core since the 7790, which was the first new core since Titan, the 680gtx and the 7970 in order, none of these cards had custom coolers available day one, neither will the next gen AMD/Nvidia cards(I guess gtx880 and R9 390... R10 290, whatever the heck they are doing with that naming scheme ).

In 6 ish weeks there will be custom cooled versions for anyone that wants them, its the same wait for AMD or Nvidia with new cores.

Titan/780 and likely the 780ti all throttle under gaming on the stock cooler, which people talk up how brilliant it is and how quiet it is.... yet it throttles, So AMD make a quiet mode and it throttles, this is terrible for AMD but fine for Nvidia, they make a loud mode which barely throttles and isn't close to insanely loud, then people turn on the 100% fan and everyone acts like it's the default sound level.

The whole "fine for Nvidia, terrible for AMD" thing is tedious and daft. Third party cooled 780gtx's massively outperform default 780gtx's, they throttle less at stock, they overclock further, they are quieter and the keep the temps down. Why is this fine for Nvidia but AMD make a cooler that has all the exact same attributes(while also not massively overcharging you for the same performance level) and it's terrible?

IMO your right on all counts, but, on the heat and throttling AMD should have seen this coming, regardless of right or wrong, should, from a lot of experience of this in recent years know how [a passionate enthusiasts market works]
As usual AMD failed to recognise that and then got their marketing strategy completely wrong.

Ignoring the performance of the cooler for just a moment.

AMD said "core clock up to 1Ghz" bad move...

that inevitably turns into "core clock 1Ghz" in the blink of an eye the important bolded text has vanished.

What happens then, of corse it doesn't always run at 1Ghz, so then the question is asked "why not?" answer "it throttles at 95c" 95c? 95c you say? my thats hot, conclusion "its a hot inefficient GPU" AMD suck blah blah blah.....

Whoever is sitting in that office ladled "AMD Marketing department" should have seen that ^^^^ coming a mile off, this is elementary stuff, its that man / woman's bread and butter.

Thracks had to explain, or try to explain that this GPU is designed to run at 95c, well fine...

Now, AMD's marketing department had something to work with in that.

Something along the lines of:

"The R9 290X has a core clock of 850Mhz and a GPU boost of 900Mhz.
The R9 290X is engineered to operate safely at higher temperatures, this coupled with and intelligent cooling solution means the R9 290X has the potential to operate at higher core clocks giving it lots of overclocking potential"

Boom- ^^^^^^ the temperature and throttling complaints all preemptively negated!

Are you taking notes AMD?

 

[Steampunk]

Did you even read his post properly? He stated the 280 was not a new card, just a rebadged 7970 which they already have coolers for (same for the 270 etc etc).

And? You think the AIBs knew about the details of the 280/270 well enough in advance to know there were minimal changes to their custom coolers, but somehow they didn't know what the 290 cards looked like? Or do you think these multi-million dollar companies just assumed that new cards with old chips would be identical to old cards? Of course not, they've had detailed measurement diagrams for months.

They have custom coolers for 290 now, but AMD won't let them ship anything with it until the embargo date on custom coolers has expired. That's down to nobody but AMD. It's probably for marketing reasons that they want all initial benchmark figures done with a stock coolers so that AIBs can differentiate themselves with non-standard coolers down the line.

 

[melmac]

And? You think the AIBs knew about the details of the 280/270 well enough in advance to know there were minimal changes to their custom coolers, but somehow they didn't know what the 290 cards looked like? Or do you think these multi-million dollar companies just assumed that new cards with old chips would be identical to old cards? Of course not, they've had detailed measurement diagrams for months.

They have custom coolers for 290 now, but AMD won't let them ship anything with it until the embargo date on custom coolers has expired. That's down to nobody but AMD. It's probably for marketing reasons that they want all initial benchmark figures done with a stock coolers so that AIBs can differentiate themselves with non-standard coolers down the line.

I don't know why you are carrying on with this, Custom cards from AIB's always take a few weeks to come out, be it from Nvidia or AMD.

 

[eddyr]

And? You think the AIBs knew about the details of the 280/270 well enough in advance to know there were minimal changes to their custom coolers, but somehow they didn't know what the 290 cards looked like? Or do you think these multi-million dollar companies just assumed that new cards with old chips would be identical to old cards? Of course not, they've had detailed measurement diagrams for months.

They have custom coolers for 290 now, but AMD won't let them ship anything with it until the embargo date on custom coolers has expired. That's down to nobody but AMD. It's probably for marketing reasons that they want all initial benchmark figures done with a stock coolers so that AIBs can differentiate themselves with non-standard coolers down the line.

One requires the work of a graphics designer or 2 for packaging while the other a bit more.

The reason to limiting to reference AMD is more likely to ensure stock delivery on launch. You wouldn't want a succesful launch to hinge on co-ordination of numerous 3rd party solutions. This way no AIB has an advantage, you reduce the risk of a paper launch (or at least its on AMD's head), and strength of supply (card model as well as model variations) too strongly dictating price over their RRP.
As to time with cards, it's not just the physical fit of a cooler. Clearly there is a temp/power/perf profile to the Hawaii chip that must be taken into account by the AIB's when they try to differentiate on attainable and sustainable clock speeds. Don't forget binning of chips for faster OC editions will require some stock buildup.

Admittedly there is no reason it should take long, but there are decent reasons for a delay imo.

 

[Steampunk]

I don't know why you are carrying on with this, Custom cards from AIB's always take a few weeks to come out, be it from Nvidia or AMD.

Because AMD/Nvidia don't let them ship, not because AIBs aren't ready. That's why it's disappointing to have to wait in view of what is a poor stock cooler.