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AMD Bulldozer Finally!

Im wondering how upgrading to a SB or BD chip plus an SSD would improve my gaming experince with me 5870...

My pc is still holding its own against the latest games at max settings (more or less), but load times and hdd performance could be better.

I wouldn't guess it would be enormous, unless the new AMD chipsets and boards are incredible. Faster HTT buses and support for DDR3-1866 RAM might eke out some more performance though, but I would imagine with the kind of graphics you already have performance increases won't be enormous leaps.

Pure speculation of course, but with the power and amounts of GDDR3 on graphics cards these days the CPU is becoming less and less integral to gaming performance than it was back in the days of Quake 3. GPUs are just far more powerful for the kind of operations performed by games.

Nonetheless, I would love to upgrade my 965BE to one of the FX8000s, though the question is whether or not to hold out til 2012 for one of the rumored 10-core (5 BD module) chips...
 
Couple of things I found posted today at xtremesystems forum in their bulldozer thread.

"Red text below says volume shipping starts June 20-24. So July hard launch"

And this rather obscure blog, presumably bulldozer?

http://obrovsky.blogspot.com/2011/05/konec-spekulace-vim-uz-vse.html
Google translation:

"End of speculation - I know, everything ....

What's in the green box? - Processors from AMD designed the NDA and a very very long time! And next month ... :) Nice consumption at rest, in the load it had such fame is not, but given the number of cores and capabilities, it could wait. Significantly increased memory bandwidth, the Sandy's but far from being, Bridge run is still leaps and bounds. CPU works great on my Gigabyte board, including Turbo! Support in the BIOS! The performance will not say anything .... I can not. Bye, bye ... info will gradually dropping ...

PS. If someone appears on screen CPUz where some value HTT, it's fake. As I showed you the slide before the time of that HTT is at the chip other than the Phenom II. System works differently with it, otherwise it derives its frequency. Anyway, this logo CPUz got me, he looks like a pilgrimage ...

Launch Date - June 11, 2011
Posted by OBR at 1:40 "
 
Don't assume that if AMD had a single high benchmark part at the top of the stack that somehow it would increase revenue. The reality is that people buy the best product for their budget, they don't care about benchmarks on parts that they can't afford.

Answer this simple question:

If AMD had a part that beat the 990X by 50%, but cost $2000, would that make you more likely to buy a $300 AMD part if the equivalent $300 Intel part was 10% faster?

I you answer yes, then you are, well, I will be nice and not say it. If you answer no, then you are like 99.999% of the rest of the market. They buy the best part for their budget.

UNfortunately yes, I wouldn't but most people I know would, people are stupid and I think thats something AMD really doesn't factor in anywhere near enough :p

The Skoda analogy is apt, people are stupid, if Skoda and Ferrari got together to make a £30k car thats actually brilliant value, and they both sold them in a shop, almost no one would buy a Skoda version they'd buy the Ferrari branded one.

I didn't say it would make them revenue, and it would be cheap. Designing a 16 core Zambezi from the ground up, complete with quad channel memory controller, chipsets, mobo's, thats what I regard as "expensive", while having Asus/Gigabyte build a couple single slot boards, and putting the chips in them I most certainly regard as cheap, free, no, but you're talking magnitudes in cost away from designing the chip, you're basically repurposing an existing product.



While very few people buy 980x/990x, they do get bought, they might be pretty awful value, but people buy them. When flat out performance is required very few people choose AMD, and when it comes to buying a back up rig, or a gaming rig, or their parents computers they are indeed more likely to buy an Intel chip.

Lets say someone starts a thread today, they ask for the fastest chip available, everyone says a 2600k or a 990x, lets say its for something that is way faster on a hexcore than a new quad so they recommend the 990x.

100 other people view the thread, and read correct statements like, Intel simply can't match AMD, the statement is in reference to the fastest chip available, but those guys who read that want low end computers, but they've just read AMD aren't even close, thats what most of them go on, then they go and buy an intel chip or an intel rig without even looking up AMD options.

With regards to politely not calling me stupid, unfortunately, the naivety of AMD keeps hurting them(and my stock, though thanks to the market crash I'm up about 400% and counting :p ). The problem is, you're basing the entire thought process on everyone KNOWING how fast one chip is over another. That simply doesn't happen, people read Intel is faster, correctly, and they'll quite happily assume it holds as fact and never, ever look up AMD performance before buying their computer.

90% of people I know, friends, family, people at uni, people at school, people at work, none of them know anything about their computer except the pretty high numbers being higher or sounding better than their last computer. Every single one of them knows about "intel inside", most don't know what AMD chips are, how fast they are, or would go into any store asking to see AMD based computers.

The amount of people on EVERY SINGLE computing forum who have to be convinced AMD would offer a better rig for a given price(up to a point where at the moment they aren't very competitive) is astonishing.


From memory you're a server guy, who also posts on several enthusiast forums, go into a general PC store and ask them what questions customers ask them about computers, or go undercover and ask for recommendations.

SErver guys know their hardware and know exactly what they need, enthusiasts often know what they want but are often swayed by who has the faster chips available, the average user, the massive majority of the market, knows smeg all about anything.

The other issue is, server guys know how much performance they need, most home users, and enthusiasts DO NOT, people upgrade from old i7's to Sandys for gaming, and wonder why they don't get a performance increase in games and why using firefox is no faster. The general user is an idiot, and buys from a perspective of brand recognition and pricing, not actual value of what they are buying.
 
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Don't assume that if AMD had a single high benchmark part at the top of the stack that somehow it would increase revenue. The reality is that people buy the best product for their budget, they don't care about benchmarks on parts that they can't afford.

Answer this simple question:

If AMD had a part that beat the 990X by 50%, but cost $2000, would that make you more likely to buy a $300 AMD part if the equivalent $300 Intel part was 10% faster?

I you answer yes, then you are, well, I will be nice and not say it. If you answer no, then you are like 99.999% of the rest of the market. They buy the best part for their budget.

Are you seriously arguing such a point? That throws the whole marketing/branding industry in the bin. 99.999999 people buy based on perception and that alone!

Sony used to be world leader in the quality of electronics back in the 80s and 90s. How many people still prefer to buy a SONY because "everybody knows they are the best" irrespective of how good they still are?? I'm talking about people who have never looked at reviews or anything, about your and my parents who (apologies for the speculation) are completely clueless on tech. But all they know is that SONY "is better". People still buy 3rd gen iphones instead of a SamsungGalaxyII or whatever else smartphone, why? because "IPHONES are the best aren't they?" They may have no clue what else is there on the market, but as long as the general media consensus is "iphone is the best", even if it was for a little while but it was well publicised, that's enough to drive consumer behaviour.

How many people buy NVIDIA gpus because NVIDIA may hold the performance crown at some point with their XXXXXXX-whatever-model card? Even if the mid-range model they buy could more expensive on a performance/cost basis than a competitors?

Seriously, you can't advocate something like that in today's market. You may be right in your reasoning but all that goes out of the window when it comes to people buying stuff.
 
People tend to buy on what they know or are told by someone they respect.

>99% of private buyers who buy a PC have no interest in what is in the box. Being impressed with the size of screen above all and price.

>99% of company buyers are generally well informed, but buy to a software spec. and are generally basing their decision on a three year write off at least cost to the business.

Then you have the < 1%'ers, technical, scientific, database users or private enthusiasts, gamers, wealthy individuals or 'I must have the best, fastest regardless'.

Of that tiny fraction of 1% some are Intel and some are AMD diehards, a few don't really care and will just buy what they think or are told is the best. Similarly with the graphics card market.

Who will earn the most money for Intel and AMD, it's obvious, the > 99%. Obtaining market share there depends on price, volume and margins as always. A few thousand specialist processors may come out down the line to address the 1% high end user at a price.
 
Spot on DM, Kgi and nkata. I had someone at work the other day tell me he wanted an Apple as "everyone knows they are more powerful than PC's", really?! Says it all and he regarded himself as knowing a bit about computing.

Most industries have high end, low volume flagship products just to give them a good reputation with the great unwashed. People, in general, are lazy don't do research and buy on hearsay and gut instinct based on a snippet of information or an advert. There is a reason our politicians only seem to deal in sound bites these days because it's all most people care to notice.

Intel as good marketeers and quite sharp (not in a good way!) too. I prefer what I know of AMD's ethics but really their marketing tactics need to be a bit more streetwise, not for the people who know but the masses that don't even know what you mean by "browser" or "desktop" when you ask them. Yes those are real examples!
 
Agreed fellas ;)

Only point left to make to JF-AMD is - why did AMD make the 6990? I'm sure you know the answer to that one mate. EXACTLY the same applies in the CPU market. Having the higher performing part will have a trickle effect on the rest of your products.

Server and Consumer markets are completely different - MOST servers are purchased using knowledge, MOST PC's are purchased using heresay.
 
Agreed fellas ;)

Only point left to make to JF-AMD is - why did AMD make the 6990? I'm sure you know the answer to that one mate. EXACTLY the same applies in the CPU market. Having the higher performing part will have a trickle effect on the rest of your products.

Server and Consumer markets are completely different - MOST servers are purchased using knowledge, MOST PC's are purchased using heresay.

It's called the halo effect. Pretty much lesson no.1 for any aspiring marketeer.

For JF-AMD to pretend that such an effect doesn't exist is utterly ludicrous.

As you say, the 6990 and 590 really make no sense at all (though cost to AMD / NVIDIA is minimal compared with a CPU analogue) unless viewed from a marketing perspective.
 
I gotta be honest here JF you might be right in what you say in the server market but in the desktop market you damn near have to force people to have AMD and as DM says everyone knows "intel inside". Benchmarks much as some of us hate them because of the many flaws are what sway more people then i think you realise and people do not put in lots of time they will go in my experience with a few things.

One will be what they have heard of see above your losing out there. Secondly they do go on budget but manipulate their budget to get what they have heard of see above. Third they go on nice big numbers using the flawed logic that because something has a high number it must be better.

Maybe AMD need to do a big advertising campaign with the release of BD to get that awareness out there to your average pc world buyer as right now the things that may well be true about AMD cpu's and price peformance is never taken into account by mainly tech ignorant people.

Maybe more AMD rep's need to get onto non enthusiast forums and start spreading the good word, lol you only have to look at some of the brown stuff said on this forum in relation to AMD vs Intel to see you do have a problem in the desktop market.
 
It looks like some benchmarks of an early Llano engineering sample have been leaked:

http://we.pcinlife.com/thread-1672481-1-1.html

http://diybbs.zol.com.cn/10/11_98811.html

http://diybbs.zol.com.cn/10/11_98849.html

It is hard to say whether Turbo Core is fully functional though.

The CPU score indicates IPC is a tad better then the current Athlon II X4:

http://techgage.com/article/amd_athlon_ii_x4_620_-_quad-core_at_99/9

The GPU seems to be similar in performance to an HD4670 or HD5550 when the CPU is at low clockspeeds.

However,if the CPU is overclocked it seems the performance is closer to a GT240 DDR3 or 8800GS.
 
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Agreed fellas ;)

Only point left to make to JF-AMD is - why did AMD make the 6990? I'm sure you know the answer to that one mate. EXACTLY the same applies in the CPU market. Having the higher performing part will have a trickle effect on the rest of your products.

Server and Consumer markets are completely different - MOST servers are purchased using knowledge, MOST PC's are purchased using heresay.

The high end gfx cards are not as much a marketing focus tool as they used to be, they now have more real purpose then before, so even if AMD 6990 would not have been the fastest dual GPU card it would still be made as people will still want it & is pretty much a tradition with AMD since the 3xxx series.
 
I gotta be honest here JF you might be right in what you say in the server market but in the desktop market you damn near have to force people to have AMD and as DM says everyone knows "intel inside".

99% of people don't buy AMD, or Intel.

They buy Dell; they buy HP; they buy Toshiba (etc, etc).

Many of them will take the salesperson's advice on the day of purchase. Some will ask a friend for advice.

Most of them will look at price as the most significant factor. If Dell sells model A with an Intel cpu at £100 more than model B with AMD, they'll be curious about model B, and hence the AMD cpu.
 
99% of people don't buy AMD, or Intel.

They buy Dell; they buy HP; they buy Toshiba (etc, etc).

Many of them will take the salesperson's advice on the day of purchase. Some will ask a friend for advice.

Most of them will look at price as the most significant factor. If Dell sells model A with an Intel cpu at £100 more than model B with AMD, they'll be curious about model B, and hence the AMD cpu.

+1 damn right!
 
But does it really matter if an AMD 8 Core BD is faster than an 2500/2600. If you hear, you can have a quad core or an 8 core for the same price, which one would you choose (bearing in mind you know little or nothing about computers) It could be a case simply of he who has the most cores wins. You could also argue clock speed, with turbo boost if BD has higher clock speeds thats yet another reason to choose an AMD system over an Intel one (again assuming ur knowledge is limited)
I'd imagine it'd be easier to impress your average pc buyer with simply having more cores + more clock speed, as it'd be easier to explain than saying "ah but the intel does more opperations per clock cycle...blah blah"
Bulldozer must be competitively priced with Sandybridge or it will fail, even if it blows intel chips out of the water price will always matter more than performance. Why else would people buy fully built PC's with Celeron chips?
 
99% of people don't buy AMD, or Intel.

They buy Dell; they buy HP; they buy Toshiba (etc, etc).

Many of them will take the salesperson's advice on the day of purchase. Some will ask a friend for advice.

Most of them will look at price as the most significant factor. If Dell sells model A with an Intel cpu at £100 more than model B with AMD, they'll be curious about model B, and hence the AMD cpu.

+1 & Intel sells more GPUs then both of them & we know how they perform in comparison but yet people still buy the PCs with intel GPUs, so its not always all about having the best performance or people wont buy, cheap sells to the masses.
 
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