AMD Mantle Vs. Direct X Battlefield 4 Multiplayer Benchmarks

[LtMatt]

I think you're not getting my point or you're purposefully arguing a straw man because everything you're linking is AMD DX vs Mantle or multi-GPU or both. I'm not saying AMD haven't improved the situation. What I'm saying is that the place they have improved it to, to me, was not noticeably different from nvidia's DX version. Whereas we could tell a difference between AMD Mantle and AMD DX they (AMD Mantle and Nvidia DX) were roughly equally as smooth at 100-110 FPS (ish). We don't have multi GPU to test that angle hence no comment on it. The gains there look impressive.

Thanks for the link at last . The graph at 1080p (what I was looking at myself as only noobs play at 60 Hz ) is more interesting to me.

They all have low frame times but anyway this isn't the 14.1 driver so it's not a correct comparison point.

Not sure why they're suddenly a touch higher at higher res, no comments to explain.

Anyway these graphs aren't showing frame consistency just 99th percentile which is different. Also the difference at 1080p is a couple of ms so not that noticeable a difference.

They're higher at higher res because it takes longer to render the frame at highert res. Lower frames, longer frame times.

AMD have better frame times in this game. This is single gpu we're talking about here, not multi. There will not be any of this inconsistency you seem to be mentioning. 780 has longer frame times than a 290 on DX. Mantle lowers the AMD frame times further and it also lowers cpu rendering times meaning a smoother output. This will show itself in smoother performance via lower rendering times. If AMD have lower rendering times before Mantle, they will not have higher rendering times after it.

 

[pugheaven]

Well, all I hope is that in the official 14.1's they sort the Mantle support for crossfire systems so I can run 5670x1080 as I think I'll get a nice benfit... as I think I'm badly CPU limited... if it increases the minimum drops that would be nice... there's two maps that run poor even on this system... Shangai is one of them... running around on a 32 man server, for some reason the fps is poor as in anything from 30's to 150fps rofl... that's too much and results in a crap game. Most other maps I can vsync at 60fps as it rarely drops below, but this one... and yet I actually think it's a p*ss poor looking map as well.

Come on AMD, get me crossfire support and hurry up lol

 

[Rusty0611]

They're higher at higher res because it takes longer to render the frame at highert res. Lower frames, longer frame times.

AMD have better frame times in this game. This is single gpu we're talking about here, not multi. There will not be any of this inconsistency you seem to be mentioning. 780 has longer frame times than a 290 on DX. Mantle lowers the AMD frame times further and it also lowers cpu rendering times meaning a smoother output. This will show itself in smoother performance via lower rendering times. If AMD have lower rendering times before Mantle, they will not have higher rendering times after it.

Your graph is old drivers not the 14.1 drivers. That's what I was comparing to.

The difference in frame times at 1080p is 2-5ms which isn't going to translate to a perceivable difference. Additionally, it's a 99th percentile graph which is different to consistency.

You're still arguing a straw man - what is your actual point because I can summarise mine in a couple of sentences?

When I compared (allbeit briefly) AMD Mantle vs AMD DX in 14.1 I could tell a difference in smoothness. When I compared AMD Mantle vs nVidia DX I couldn't tell hardly any difference.

Is there a difference in pre Mantle DX driver and Mantle? Has anybody compared this side by side? Anyway I don't think there's much point continuing while you're attacking a straw man so if you want to discuss the point I'm raising then feel free to respond accordingly .

 

[LtMatt]

Heres an example of what frame times are going to look like for single cards on BF4 on DX. Assuming the card has enough grunt and vram, there will not be any inconsistency that Rusty mentions. If a R265/R270X can deliver smooth performance at 1080P Ultra settings, you can be sure a R290 will with vastly more fps.





I tried to find some other BF4 frame time results on pcper featuring a 290/780 but there are none. Only BF3 results so far (aside from the one above dated Fed 13th) so im guessing they've only just added it to their testing suit

 

[Gregster]

I didn't think you liked PCper Matt, but as you mentioned it and it is a graph war, let's have a look at this.

A very minimal gain on their testing.

 

[LtMatt]

Your graph is old drivers not the 14.1 drivers. That's what I was comparing to.

The difference in frame times at 1080p is 2-5ms which isn't going to translate to a perceivable difference. Additionally, it's a 99th percentile graph which is different to consistency.

You're still arguing a straw man - what is your actual point because I can summarise mine in a couple of sentences?

When I compared (allbeit briefly) AMD Mantle vs AMD DX in 14.1 I could tell a difference in smoothness. When I compared AMD Mantle vs nVidia DX I couldn't tell hardly any difference.

Is there a difference in pre Mantle DX driver and Mantle? Has anybody compared this side by side? Anyway I don't think there's much point continuing while you're attacking a straw man so if you want to discuss the point I'm raising then feel free to respond accordingly .

As i said earlier, probably a case of PEBKAC on that system you used. You admitted you only tested it briefly so i don't put much weight behind your claims. Especially when pretty much everyone else says the opposite.

When i benched 14.1 and 13.12 on DX and there was little difference. I think the fps were pretty much identical. Maybe 14.1 had a fractional improvement but nothing major.

I would expect a bigger reduction in 780 frame times and an improvement in smoothness if you were able to use Mantle. Probably more than i would see due to the slightly higher rendering times exhibited on your card. Its likely one of those things that you wouldn't realise until you were able to see and feel it. Clearly you've not been able to yet.

I didn't think you liked PCper Matt, but as you mentioned it and it is a graph war, let's have a look at this.

A very minimal gain on their testing.

Lol. Its not a graph war.

That graph you posted is single player and he (Ryan at pcper) deliberately picked the most gpu bound part in the game to test. The OP contains multi player benchmarks and the title says as much. Also the graph you posted is FPS and not frame time so its irrelevant to what myself and Rusty are discussing.

 

[Rusty0611]

As i said earlier, probably a case of PEBKAC on that system you used. You admitted you only tested it briefly so i don't put much weight behind your claims. Especially when pretty much everyone else says the opposite.

When i benched 14.1 and 13.12 on DX and there was little difference. I think the fps were pretty much identical. Maybe 14.1 had a fractional improvement but nothing major. You keep saying everyone says the opposite but again that's a straw man because I have never said there's nothing different between AMD DX and AMD Mantle.

I would expect a bigger reduction in 780 frame times and an improvement in smoothness if you were able to use Mantle. Probably more than i would see due to the slightly higher rendering times exhibited on your card. Its likely one of those things that you wouldn't realise until you were able to see and feel it. Clearly you've not been able to yet.

How can I get PEBKAC on a new install of Windows with just the bare drivers installed for the things plugged in? . It was brief but it was long enough to draw a comparison.

You benched it but did you compare frame times and consistency? Why is everyone ditching 14.1 for DX then if it's OK? Everyone I have spoken to says that DX is knackered in 14.1... so?

The point is this smoothness is just noticed going from AMD DX to AMD Mantle. AMD Mantle vs nVidia DX at similarly high frame rates I didn't really notice anything different between the two.

Anyway, I didn't say it was frame time that was the improvement. I suggested it may have been the case. I don't know why there's a phantom increase in smoothness for AMD users over DX. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps when you look outside the box and compare to other cards on the market, that their DX experience was not stellar previously.

 

[LtMatt]

How can I get PEBKAC on a new install of Windows with just the bare drivers installed for the things plugged in?

You benched it but did you compare frame times and consistency? Why is everyone ditching 14.1 for DX then if it's OK? Everyone I have spoken to says that DX is knackered in 14.1... so?

The point is this smoothness is just noticed going from AMD DX to AMD Mantle. AMD Mantle vs nVidia DX at similarly high frame rates I didn't really notice anything different between the two.

I don't know but something is clearly not right from what you've said.

Yes, the BF4 benchmarking command delivery outputs fps and frame times for cpu + gpu. The problem with 14.1 is the bugs Rusty, not the performance improvements it offers for single card users and SOME crossfire users in BF4.

As i say i don't think we can hold your brief testing with too much regard. I'm likely to go with the majority and my own findings on this having spent some time looking at it.

Single card AMD DX BF4 performance is stellar and plenty of reviews show that to be the case. However in your case there appears to be an exception here going against the grain.

 

[Suarez7]

I'd like to test this smoothness claim, in fact I may very well be able to soon if I get this 290x I've been offered. Both sides have got frame times down to a point where it's under most monitors response times.

 

[LtMatt]

I'd like to test this smoothness claim, in fact I may very well be able to soon if I get this 290x I've been offered. Both sides have got frame times down to a point where it's under most monitors response times.

It would settle this argument once and for all. The way i see it is currently like for like both sides frame times are similar, close, excellent. However AMD may be slightly ahead, assuming like for like gpu speed ala 290/780. Now if Mantle lowers not only the gpu rendering time, but the cpu rendering time as well, how can that now not equal anything but smoother gameplay online at Ultra settings?

 

[~>Dg<~]

dat gain less than a normal driver update 4 months we waited for less than a normal driver gain only amd could market such a fail (no fanboy i have amd card lols)

 

[Calin Banc]

I'm not disputing that people are saying it's smoother. What I'm saying is that the majority are also saying that their DX experience wasn't stellar too. .

Best experience is with frame cap using different programs or v sync with mantle that at least for me, it shaves off the input lag that this option usually comes with.

This whole discussion reminds me of the first FCAT tests. Users (let's call them "the green guys") come and say "look, on AMD it plays baaad, nVIDIA offers a smoother experience!". Some AMD users come and say "well, it's pretty good on my end, even in multi GPU". The first ones go "oh, but look at the graphs, look at the numbers, you sir(s) are wrong, wrong I tell you!".
Time passes by and with newer drivers and future testes show that AMD is actually better than nVIDIA in BF 4. Mantle comes along and it improves on that even more. Now, the "green guys" come and say "oh, no more graphs, it can't be smoother than what it is on my rig. It's perfect, this is just placebo".

With performance it's the same. Although users experience better overall frame rates and frame times (the better as the hardware is weaker), the final sentiment is "oh, under 10%, it's small, nVIDIA gave 10% by driver", although everyone, including review sites and users, are saying things look a lot better and can DIFFER greatly from one setup to the other (from 0% to 30-50% or more).

Why is so hard to accept that DX is not the best API at the moment? Because in the end THAT is the whole freaking point! We are using to much brute force to overcome old software ways of doing stuff.

 

[LtMatt]

Best experience is with frame cap using different programs or v sync with mantle that at least for me, it shaves off the input lag that this option usually comes with.

This whole discussion reminds me of the first FCAT tests. Users (let's call them "the green guys") come and say "look, on AMD it plays baaad, nVIDIA offers a smoother experience!". Some AMD users come and say "well, it's pretty good on my end, even in multi GPU". The first ones go "oh, but look at the graphs, look at the numbers, you sir(s) are wrong, wrong I tell you!".
Time passes by and with newer drivers and future testes show that AMD is actually better than nVIDIA in BF 4. Mantle comes along and it improves on that even more. Now, the "green guys" come and say "oh, no more graphs, it can't be smoother than what it is on my rig. It's perfect, this is just placebo".

With performance it's the same. Although users experience better overall frame rates and frame times (the better as the hardware is weaker), the final sentiment is "oh, under 10%, it's small, nVIDIA gave 10% by driver", although everyone, including review sites and users, are saying things look a lot better and can DIFFER greatly from one setup to the other (from 0% to 30-50% or more).

Why is so hard to accept that DX is not the best API at the moment? Because in the end THAT is the whole freaking point! We are using to much brute force to overcome old software ways of doing stuff.

Lol. Spot on my friend. I remember those dark days well.

 

[humbug]

Yeah I get that. Sounds like AMD don't have good frame times / consistency in DX in BF4. Though that isn't necessarily a fault of DX and a benefit of Mantle because as I said before, for me my game can't be any smoother. But I have a different vendor GPU so perhaps Nvidia are better on this angle currently.

Then i will put it another way, no game on any GPU has ever felt as fluid as BF4 does in Mantle.

I though BF4 was smooth in DX.

As i said, you have to experience it to know it.

 

[Suarez7]

It would settle this argument once and for all. The way i see it is currently like for like both sides frame times are similar, close, excellent. However AMD may be slightly ahead, assuming like for like gpu speed ala 290/780. Now if Mantle lowers not only the gpu rendering time, but the cpu rendering time as well, how can that now not equal anything but smoother gameplay online at Ultra settings?

It makes perfect sense what you're saying and the number of people I've seen say it feels smoother is a lot. Anything that lowers rendering time should be perceivable especially in an FPS game.

 

[Rusty0611]

I don't know but something is clearly not right from what you've said.

Yes, the BF4 benchmarking command delivery outputs fps and frame times for cpu + gpu. The problem with 14.1 is the bugs Rusty, not the performance improvements it offers for single card users and SOME crossfire users in BF4.

As i say i don't think we can hold your brief testing with too much regard. I'm likely to go with the majority and my own findings on this having spent some time looking at it.

Single card AMD DX BF4 performance is stellar and plenty of reviews show that to be the case. However in your case there appears to be an exception here going against the grain.

You keep saying the 'majority' but that is the strawman I'm referring to because I have no doubt that there's an improvement in smoothness with AMD Mantle compared to AMD DX and I haven't said anything to the contrary. You've focused on frame times as the crux of your argument but I don't why people are saying all over the internet that their DX experience is not stellar.

If there is user error in double clicking a driver installer then I stand corrected .

Anyway my point all along is AMD Mantle vs nVidia DX. What do the majority have to say with regards to smoothness on this point? Who's tested this?

Brief being a couple of hours or so. He fried his motherboard overclocking his 290X too much on his rubbish PSU . He got an RMA replacement so I did the rebuild for him. Not to say the 290X DX experience was 'bad' it just wasn't as smooth as the nVidia DX experience. Mantle brought them roughly on par.

 

[Gregster]

Lol. Its not a graph war.

That graph you posted is single player and he (Ryan at pcper) deliberately picked the most gpu bound part in the game to test. The OP contains multi player benchmarks and the title says as much. Also the graph you posted is FPS and not frame time so its irrelevant to what myself and Rusty are discussing.

Ahhhh the "suit my argument only debate". You deliberately picked the most CPU demanding part of the SP to demonstrate the CPU bottleneck to skew your results in your BF4 bench thread (another one that was started here). I don't care either way and the OP shows the possible gains but it isn't representative for all and another part of the game will show little to no improvement, so it is all relative.

frametimes are all well and good but like Rusty has stated and I have seen graphs of yours and other users that show AMD to have frametimes very similar to what we are seeing now, so placebo effect is indeed happening.

 

[Rusty0611]

Best experience is with frame cap using different programs or v sync with mantle that at least for me, it shaves off the input lag that this option usually comes with.

This whole discussion reminds me of the first FCAT tests. Users (let's call them "the green guys") come and say "look, on AMD it plays baaad, nVIDIA offers a smoother experience!". Some AMD users come and say "well, it's pretty good on my end, even in multi GPU". The first ones go "oh, but look at the graphs, look at the numbers, you sir(s) are wrong, wrong I tell you!".
Time passes by and with newer drivers and future testes show that AMD is actually better than nVIDIA in BF 4. Mantle comes along and it improves on that even more. Now, the "green guys" come and say "oh, no more graphs, it can't be smoother than what it is on my rig. It's perfect, this is just placebo".

With performance it's the same. Although users experience better overall frame rates and frame times (the better as the hardware is weaker), the final sentiment is "oh, under 10%, it's small, nVIDIA gave 10% by driver", although everyone, including review sites and users, are saying things look a lot better and can DIFFER greatly from one setup to the other (from 0% to 30-50% or more).

Why is so hard to accept that DX is not the best API at the moment? Because in the end THAT is the whole freaking point! We are using to much brute force to overcome old software ways of doing stuff.

I know gains can be higher that the 8% illustrated here with a worse CPU but I'm more interested in what gains can be found in a GPU limited scenario because I'm not CPU limited with a 4c/8t OC i7 4770k .

I didn't really understand your point elsewhere as you seem to be talking to yourself .

 

[pugheaven]

Can I just ask a silly question... is DX really screwed in 14.1? Is it worth me going back to 13.12's then?

 

[Gregster]

Why is so hard to accept that DX is not the best API at the moment? Because in the end THAT is the whole freaking point! We are using to much brute force to overcome old software ways of doing stuff.

This could very well be true for AMD users. Maybe you have missed out on performance with AMD drivers and DX because of they way they work together? If this is the case, it is good that you now have the CPU and GPU working better than what you previously had and good stuff