Which is where it was always supposed to be had RDNA1 not hit problems. Remember everybody crying about the RX 680 image?
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AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year
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some proof of that. I never heard of any word of any big Navi coming out for RDNA1. The RX 690 referred to the 5700XT Limited Edition.
EDIT: There was never a card coming out for RDNA 1 that were going to push the 1080Ti into the low end.
Proof of what? I never said anything about Big Navi on RDNA 1.
But you've answered your own question: the 5700 XT was supposed to be RX 680 originally. We all saw the graphic snafu (presumably meaning the 5700 was going to be RX 670). That replaces the Polaris 500 series. It's a logical extension then that a 40 CU RX 680 would have bigger cards above it, namely with 56 and 64 CUs (to replace Vega). But of course they never materialised, did they. Why? It's a long-standing belief (and unfortunately never confirmed) that Navi had some issues which caused it to be delayed, and there was talk about a respin required back in September 2018. Perhaps those problems were bigger than anticipated, so the decision was made to launch the new 5700 moniker and clock the tattas off Navi 10 and face off against Nvidia's mid-range RTX until some kind of fix was in place.
It's been a year, but it looks like that fix is finally here. So all the existing 5000 series Navi cards get fresh silicon and pushed into the product segment they were originally intended. It's not a case of 5700 XT "pushed" to the lower end, it's where the card was always supposed to be.
By virtue of this taking a year to resolve, there's now little point in producing RDNA 1 GPUs with 56, 64 and even 80 CUs (as was likely the original plan) because RDNA 2 is right around the corner.
Just imagine though what could have been. 40 CU card as AMD's lower-tier product beating the mid-range RTX 2070? 80 CUs would have obliterated the 2080 Ti.
Soldato
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So it's not just me then 
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I believed a long time ago that the 5700 series would be mid-low end gpu once RDNA 2 came out. For 1440p gaming its still a blast for me.
As for the refresh Navi10 I do have to wonder what kind of performance gains are had.
This leave us to wonder what is Navi23? Because the latest rumor is false (IE: just a respun Navi10).
We have so far coming by the end of 2020/2021:
Navi21 = 505 mm2. Big Navi
Nav22 = 340 mm2. Not sure this is a real die yet
Navi23 = 240 mm2. On 5nm????
Navi10 = 251 mm2. Respun Navi10
That is a lot of different gpus skus coming from AMD. I don't recall AMD release this many gpus during the same quarter. Each die has the potential to be up to 4 different skus.
That is a lot of gpus to fill the market with.
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I believed a long time ago that the 5700 series would be mid-low end gpu once RDNA 2 came out. For 1440p gaming its still a blast for me.
As for the refresh Navi10 I do have to wonder what kind of performance gains are had.
This leave us to wonder what is Navi23? Because the latest rumor is false (IE: just a respun Navi10).
We have so far coming by the end of 2020/2021:
Navi21 = 505 mm2. Big Navi
Nav22 = 340 mm2. Not sure this is a real die yet
Navi23 = 240 mm2. On 5nm????
Navi10 = 251 mm2. Respun Navi10
That is a lot of different gpus skus coming from AMD. I don't recall AMD release this many gpus during the same quarter. Each die has the potential to be up to 4 different skus.
That is a lot of gpus to fill the market with.
Soldato
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So it's not just me then
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I believed a long time ago that the 5700 series would be mid-low end gpu once RDNA 2 came out. For 1440p gaming its still a blast for me.
As for the refresh Navi10 I do have to wonder what kind of performance gains are had.
This leave us to wonder what is Navi23? Because the latest rumor is false (IE: just a respun Navi10).
We have so far coming by the end of 2020/2021:
Navi21 = 505 mm2. Big Navi
Nav22 = 340 mm2. Not sure this is a real die yet
Navi23 = 240 mm2. On 5nm????
Navi10 = 251 mm2. Respun Navi10
That is a lot of different gpus skus coming from AMD. I don't recall AMD release this many gpus during the same quarter. Each die has the potential to be up to 4 different skus.
That is a lot of gpus to fill the market with.
As Nvidia have shown it does not matter the size of the chip these days it's more about how fast it is. The 5700xt was clearly faster than the 2070 which cost 450-500 at the time so most likely renamed it from 670 given they could charge a lot more for it. I doubt anyone is buying it when called 680 as a direct Polaris replacement at £400. Smart move tbh.
Soldato
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Nav10 251 mm²
RTX 2070 445 mm²
Well, according to this size does matter.
I'm looking at scaling/performance forecasting though.
Gist: Nvidia started big while Navi is smaller. As AMD increase die size of Navi the potential is there (based on Uarch advances) to eclipse Nvidia at a smaller/similar area real estate (IE: how many gpus per wafer, performance, etc).
I'm interested in seeing were it stands with whatever Ampere is (rumored: 700 mm²). Will it win if that's true? Who knows... But, if it come close or tie it will do so 195mm2 smaller. And price/cost would be the advantage of having a smaller die in that regard.
AMD can simply afford to charge a lower price and still profit. While Nvidia would throw another higher tiered sku as a replacement for whatever AMD beat in order to compete at price reduction. Which is only killing their own strategies and profit. IE: They could have sold both a 2070 and 2070S at a much higher price. However, do to 5700 series the 2070S is now at the same price as the 2070 (just going on Nvidia's price not AIBs). Ouch!!!!
However, again, manufacturing would be AMD's advantage, something I mentioned earlier. Mindshare is no longer an issue with game developers nor gamers do to consoles and Ryzen.
Some see it that AMD would need a die just as big (better Uarch) in order to compete. However, based on current trends and Uarch advancements if that were the case it's likely AMD performance would far exceed them. Be that as it may things are about to get very interesting.
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Navi 1 IPC is the same if not a few % higher than Turing, a few pages back a 2070 at 1.5Ghz which has the same 256Bit GDDR6 @ 1750Mhz and the same 2304 Shaders was about 96% the performance of a 5700.
The 5700XT reference runs at about 1850Mhz, the 2070 about 2000Mhz, AIB 5700XT mine about 1950Mhz.... some as high as 2050Mhz, its a 40 CU (2560 Shader) part with 256Bit GDDR6.
The 505mm^2 Navi 2 is thought to be an 80 CU part with 512Bit GDDR6 with a reference core speed of about 2050Mhz with AIB ones as high as 2200Mhz, its 2X the 5700XT +5% core speed and between +5 - 10% higher IPC.
According to the TPU slide above a 2080TI is 142% of a reference 5700XT, doubling the CU and memory bandwidth does not scale 1:1, conservatively we can safely say 0.75:1, so all things being equal big Navi would be 175% of the 5700XT, add +5% IPC and + 5% clocks making it 185% of the 5700XT, about 143% of the 2080TI.
That doesn't seem like a huge leap... but i would like to see Nvidia go 180% or more of the 2080TI to make it a meaningful difference from Big Navi, the 2080TI is 800mm^2 on 12nm, 12nm is 0.7 the density of 7nm, you gain 40% die area going to 7nm, a 2080TI would still be 570mm^2 on 7nm, all things being equal to gain that 80% to put them 30% ahead of Big Navi Nvidia would have to go 1150mm^2 on 7nm.
Good luck with that.
The 5700XT reference runs at about 1850Mhz, the 2070 about 2000Mhz, AIB 5700XT mine about 1950Mhz.... some as high as 2050Mhz, its a 40 CU (2560 Shader) part with 256Bit GDDR6.
The 505mm^2 Navi 2 is thought to be an 80 CU part with 512Bit GDDR6 with a reference core speed of about 2050Mhz with AIB ones as high as 2200Mhz, its 2X the 5700XT +5% core speed and between +5 - 10% higher IPC.
According to the TPU slide above a 2080TI is 142% of a reference 5700XT, doubling the CU and memory bandwidth does not scale 1:1, conservatively we can safely say 0.75:1, so all things being equal big Navi would be 175% of the 5700XT, add +5% IPC and + 5% clocks making it 185% of the 5700XT, about 143% of the 2080TI.
That doesn't seem like a huge leap... but i would like to see Nvidia go 180% or more of the 2080TI to make it a meaningful difference from Big Navi, the 2080TI is 800mm^2 on 12nm, 12nm is 0.7 the density of 7nm, you gain 40% die area going to 7nm, a 2080TI would still be 570mm^2 on 7nm, all things being equal to gain that 80% to put them 30% ahead of Big Navi Nvidia would have to go 1150mm^2 on 7nm.
Good luck with that.
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Soldato
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Depends what an AMD part that exceeds 2080Ti +50% costs, cos even if its for the sake of argument £800 that ain't half bad.
If however AMD think they can scab it close to an Ampere 3080Ti which again for the sake of argument comes in at £1.2k to the consumer then forget it that's just dead on arrival cos people will buy the Nvidia part.
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That's a big part of the problem for AMD. They could offer the exact same product at 30% less cost and the masses would still buy Nvidia. Mindshare is a powerful thing.
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Navi21: 80CU, 505mm2 part that OC 2200Mhz+, that is about 40%-50% faster then a 2080ti for 700-800 would be very attractive part if true. Unless Nvidia is willing to compete on price I don't see anyone but loyalists still paying 1k-2k for similar performance.
The average joe won't spend 200+ more being marketed about drivers for hardware with similar performance otherwise. Not only does AMD have developer mindshare but they also have consumer mind share through their Ryzen skus. Times have changed from yester-year.
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Soldato
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Sure for people willing to look at the facts and enthusiasts, but a lot would still buy prebuilds with Nvidia in it or just buy the Nvidia card they wanted at any price point regardless of competition value for money.
I have witnessed it dozens of times.
Soldato
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You only witness this in a market were there was little competition. That's the difference. That's not the case come end of 2020/2021. If AMD blows Intel out the water with these Ryzen 4000 cpus with lower latency and higher clocks I might even switch and that's saying something
. There is more value "going all AMD" then you realize.And here we thought it would take the RTG to do the heavy marketing lift when Ryzen is doing it all by themselves. Radeon will simply ride on the Ryzen wave.
Even though its not talked about that much here even Nvidia got onboard. All Aboard!!!!
Chooo-Chooo
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05/nvidia-ditches-intel-cozies-up-to-amd-with-its-new-dgx-a100/
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Soldato
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You only witness this in a market were there was little competition. That's the difference. That's not the case come end of 2020/2021. If AMD blows Intel out the water with thees Ryzen 4000 cpus with lower latency and higher clocks I might even switch and that's saying something
And here we thought it would take the RTG to do the heavy marketing lift when Ryzen is doing it all by themselves. Radeon will simply ride on the Ryzen wave.
I have witnessed it since the 9700Pro/5800 days. I am not new to this scene and I have witnessed it when AMD has had the better cards too. It's just how mentality and brand loyalty works.
I know people who still swear by Intel regardless of anything and will buy their processors over AMD.
Soldato
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There are always loyalist, a smaller segment of the market. However, that's not the focus. I'm talking about the entire gaming market. There are certain dynamics between then and now that have change the market.
-AMD buying ATI
-AMD becoming more competitive against Intel
-AMD controlling the console market
-Console performance actually matching higher range PC, (2080 performance using 8core 16 thread CPUs that even in the PC market a lot don't have yet, etc).
-RTG becoming competitive for the 1st time under these market conditions.
-Nvidia buying AMD CPUs
-etc
There are way to many disruptive variables to believe at this point that things might return to the way it use to be. It's just not a feasible assessment to the market as a whole now.
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Yes, which is why AMD are not going to be too concerned if they don't have the outright fastest card, people will buy the Nvidia one anyway.
AMD will stick to making smaller GPU's more affordable to you and me and less of a liability to them, those GPU's we do buy.
You only witness this in a market were there was little competition. That's the difference. That's not the case come end of 2020/2021. If AMD blows Intel out the water with thees Ryzen 4000 cpus with lower latency and higher clocks I might even switch and that's saying something
And here we thought it would take the RTG to do the heavy marketing lift when Ryzen is doing it all by themselves. Radeon will simply ride on the Ryzen wave.
Even though its not talked about that much here even Nvidia got onboard. All Aboard!!!!
Chooo-Chooo
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05/nvidia-ditches-intel-cozies-up-to-amd-with-its-new-dgx-a100/
He's a smart guy,
those Rome CPU's are significantly faster, significantly more power efficient with significantly more PCIe bandwidth than Intel's offering.'One' of those Rome CPU's is faster than Intel best 'in dual socket configuration' and they don't require a 1HP chiller to run....
It's frightening really. I don't understand that mindset. I don't understand people who don't do at least a little research before dropping a good amount of cash on an item.
So pretty much the entire consumer market then
I've seen people buy houses and cars with less thought than I buy a toaster. Without them scammers and lawyers would be out of a job LolSo pretty much the entire consumer market then
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