AMD Navi 23 ‘NVIDIA Killer’ GPU Rumored to Support Hardware Ray Tracing, Coming Next Year

[gpuerrilla]

well I caught up and it seems not a whole lot has happened. Am quite looking forward to seeing what we get here and how much money they want to extort from me for one I might even buy myself a birthday present if they are decent

You think the navi's will be decent on the mining again? Will be happy if they can be double the Mh/s of the vega.

 

[Vince]

You think the navi's will be decent on the mining again? Will be happy if they can be double the Mh/s of the vega.

I dunno, I will keep my 7 if it can't keep up in compute. I dunno yet I just think I want big navi. I have "big" Vega... Now I need Big Navi!

And you know what.. I'm going to run them both Daisy chained off of one cable each (like a boss) I can then get like 300 fps rather than the 250 I currently get in all the games I play - But then I should also be good for some cyberpunk.

 

[pugheaven]

I'm hoping for 3 million plus per day minimum for Folding have to admit, then I'll probably buy two, one for gaming, one for folding. This 5700xt is solid around the 1.2 million PPD, but want some serious now.. and I want 120fps 4k gaming maxed... not a lot to ask Father AMD is it? lol

 

[EastCoastHandle]

No anger in my reply - I simply don't have my head in it or the time right now to go into enough detail myself - ray tracing is fully capable of effects far beyond what we can do with traditional techniques once you have light transport in the equation and the opinion you are proclaiming only comes from ignorance of the potential.

There is no ignorance when it's not in practice in today games. That's the whole point of my replies to you. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, simply does not cut it. It's what we actually have now for PC games that is the litmus test.

This is why I said that as of now it's simply a secondary option to rasterized games we have now. Sure we may get demos showing us "potential" but it's still not practical for common use case (the average PC gamer on a budget build). And as RT pushes the boundaries one needs a ultra PC setup with downsampling to add a few extra RT features. Not an entire RT gaming scene.

But it does matter because with rasterization it's just an approximation and when you compare scenes you can tell one is faked because it has all sorts of telltale signs, we know that reflections for example can only be screen space when rasterized, which has all sorts of problems and limitations. But also it matters for developers, if they have to manually add in these effects or tailor them to the map, or worse the map to the effects losing more creative control, then that's less time they can spend doing other things. Where as it's a meme with ray tracing but it just works, very little artistic input is needed once it's implemented in the engine, you can just turn it on and away you go.

It's not "lost in the details" because the details are the entire point, people care about graphics and they want improvement in the fidelity of the graphics and so simply by definition the details matter. If what you mean is you couldn't give a toss about the details, then fine. But a lot of us do which is why we spend the better part of a grand on video card hardware.

You just showed why it's lost in the details. You talk about how "it just works" but do not provide any insight on "what we see from RT in today's games". This is the point of my response to you. What you see, not what's possible through development. Because the end results still looks the same, a game rasterized with ray trace elements. Those RTE's don't replace it's rasterized counter part. It just substitutes it because the object of the entire game is the same. To create a rasterized look. Remember, the goal is realism. You know from Nvidia demo of RT when they introduced it...the one with the dancing man in the space suite? We aren't there yet. Or, the one with the strom troopers. Again, we aren't there yet.

The point still remains that at best, no matter how much of a benefit you see if for development, it still hasn't changed the scope of the final image in the games presented to us so far in the PC space.

 

[Rroff]

You know from Nvidia demo of RT when they introduced it...the one with the dancing man in the space suite? We aren't there yet. Or, the one with the strom troopers. Again, we aren't there yet.

Your comments come over as a general dismissal of ray tracing until someone takes you up on it when you then switch to talking about current games...

The path tracer in Quake 2 can achieve the kind of results you are talking about albeit with some compromise due to making up for lower ray count with the denoiser (which is why I'm not a fan of negativity on the subject or anything that slows down pace towards that end).

 

[PrincessFrosty]

You just showed why it's lost in the details. You talk about how "it just works" but do not provide any insight on "what we see from RT in today's games". This is the point of my response to you. What you see, not what's possible through development. Because the end results still looks the same, a game rasterized with ray trace elements. Those RTE's don't replace it's rasterized counter part. It just substitutes it because the object of the entire game is the same. To create a rasterized look. Remember, the goal is realism. You know from Nvidia demo of RT when they introduced it...the one with the dancing man in the space suite? We aren't there yet. Or, the one with the strom troopers. Again, we aren't there yet.

The point still remains that at best, no matter how much of a benefit you see if for development, it still hasn't changed the scope of the final image in the games presented to us so far in the PC space.

This is a strange false dichotomy about adopting the technology or not, that it almost has to be full scene or nothing, like: all or bust? We don't have the graphical horsepower to do fulls screen ray tracing because ray tracing is much more computationally expensive than rasterization. So we pick and choose small elements to start with, ones that can show real benefit to games right now by doing things like more accurate reflections. Right now hybrid rendering is all we can realistically do in real time. In 20 years time probably we'll have full scene capable modern games and rasterization will start to go away, but it's going to be a long road to get there, one of slow incremental improvements.

What we see from RT in games today are things like more accurate reflections, we can move away from screen space which have problems, to proper real time ray traced ones. We can start to do way better 3D audio by bouncing audio rays around the world, we can do better global illumination and so on. Of course these things look better than their rasterization faked counterparts, otherwise we wouldn't do them. The end result is something that looks visually better for the gamers and is easier to develop for the artists. So everyone benefits.

 

[EastCoastHandle]

Your comments come over as a general dismissal of ray tracing until someone takes you up on it when you then switch to talking about current games...

The path tracer in Quake 2 can achieve the kind of results you are talking about albeit with some compromise due to making up for lower ray count with the denoiser.

I'm placing an objective opinion on the subject that's not targeted at you but about ray tracing. Which explains why I believe it's still something that hasn't quite fully developed in the gaming space as of yet.

This is a strange false dichotomy about adopting the technology or not, that it almost has to be full scene or nothing, like: all or bust?


We don't have the graphical horsepower to do fulls screen ray tracing because ray tracing is much more computationally expensive than rasterization. So we pick and choose small elements to start with, ones that can show real benefit to games right now by doing things like more accurate reflections. Right now hybrid rendering is all we can realistically do in real time.

So you agree that all that is offered is rasterized games using only elements of RT. Which I mentioned earlier. But want to claim a false dichotomy...ok princessfrosty.

In 20 years time probably we'll have full scene capable modern games and rasterization will start to go away, but it's going to be a long road to get there, one of slow incremental improvements.

This is only rehashing what I've already said.

------------------
When we look at the Neon Noir demo, nvidia Marbles at Night, Project Sol, SW: Reflections, etc it's a far cry from what we see in games today. Yes, we see the potential of how RT can be used. But it's not something we will see in gaming. At least for a long time to come IMO.

Those demos are a far from a false dichotomy (when compared to the actual RT games we have now). Ignoring the points I've made in which games are still rasterized with elements of ray tracing in them to fit within the IQ of rasterized environment. Again, take the examples I provided earlier with the demos. What games are out that look like those demos that can be played by mainstream PC gamers? As of now none. Thus why I see it as a gimmick.

 

[Grim5]

Dirt 5 on the 52CU RDNA2 Xbox Series X runs as low as 1080p to get 120fps, plus uses downgraded graphics in 120fps mode with crowd NPC being removed

https://wccftech.com/dirt-5-4k-xbox-series-x-gameplay-image-quality-framerate-120hz-modes/

Dreams of 8k gaming and 4K 120hz fading fast

 

[gpuerrilla]

Fair enough, not read into it Grim but isnt the console tact going to be two modes, i.e. high fps or say 4k60 for visuals?

 

[Grim5]

Fair enough, not read into it Grim but isnt the console tact going to be two modes, i.e. high fps or say 4k60 for visuals?

It does have a 4K 60hz mode but as tested by digital foundry its dynamic and drops down to 1800p

what is really interesting is that 1080p is way less than half of 1800p, the series X should be able to get 120fps without having to use 1080p if it scaled perfectly . We could have found RDNA2's Achilles hill - it seems to have the same texture througput issues at lower resolutions that Ampere has

 

[TrM]

It does have a 4K 60hz mode but as tested by digital foundry its dynamic and drops down to 1800p

I think that’s more to Down to it being a early game we allways see console games getting better as time goes on when they start to 7nderstand them better I can see most games being either solid 4K 60fps or 1440p 120fps across most of them. The first release games are normally terrible

 

[hyperseven]

Dirt 5 on the 52CU RDNA2 Xbox Series X runs as low as 1080p to get 120fps, plus uses downgraded graphics in 120fps mode with crowd NPC being removed

https://wccftech.com/dirt-5-4k-xbox-series-x-gameplay-image-quality-framerate-120hz-modes/

Dreams of 8k gaming and 4K 120hz fading fast

Witness the power that RDNA2 brings

Beyond raytracing that is Some real nextgen **** going on.

 

[Purgatory]

 

[Hotwired]

Reviewer seems to think it's a decent implementation.

Are people upsetting themselves with their own hype?

 

[Freddie1980]

Pause the video as they drive around the mud and stone tracks, the level of tessellation going on is remarkable.

Reviewer seems to think it's a decent implementation.

Are people upsetting themselves with their own hype?

4k (dynamic) @ 120FPS on a piece of hardware that costs £500 not impressive? See if you build a PC for that money that can do the same.

 

[g67575]

https://twitter.com/LisaSu/status/1315648926993854466

It's funny how much people are reading into this tweet. 'as we show off our “Big Navi”' simply refers to a single GPU, or they wouldve said Big Navi graphics cards.

The 2nd part, '@Radeon RX 6000 series !!' could just mean its a part of this series, and they just wanted to link to the Radeon RX page...

At this point, we can safely say there are two designs, the larger variant with 3 fans is big Navi, the smaller one with 2 fans is a less powerful graphics card.

Also, note how confident and up front AMD were with their Zen 3 series announcement this year, there was no need for AMD to be coy with any details.

 

[hyperseven]

Pause the video as they drive around the mud and stone tracks, the level of tessellation going on is remarkable.



4k (dynamic) @ 120FPS on a piece of hardware that costs £500 not impressive? See if you build a PC for that money that can do the same.

the bloke said 1440p@120 peak dropping to 1080p, where are you getting 4K from?

 

[PrincessFrosty]

So you agree that all that is offered is rasterized games using only elements of RT. Which I mentioned earlier. But want to claim a false dichotomy...ok princessfrosty.

This is only rehashing what I've already said.

------------------
When we look at the Neon Noir demo, nvidia Marbles at Night, Project Sol, SW: Reflections, etc it's a far cry from what we see in games today. Yes, we see the potential of how RT can be used. But it's not something we will see in gaming. At least for a long time to come IMO.

Those demos are a far from a false dichotomy (when compared to the actual RT games we have now). Ignoring the points I've made in which games are still rasterized with elements of ray tracing in them to fit within the IQ of rasterized environment. Again, take the examples I provided earlier with the demos. What games are out that look like those demos that can be played by mainstream PC gamers? As of now none. Thus why I see it as a gimmick.

No I disagree with the characterization that it's "all that is offered" because that's downplaying what is being offered. Yes we agree on the facts because the facts are indisputable, modern games using RTX technology use a hybrid rendering system where most of the scene is rendered using classical rasterization and special ray tracing functions are used for small amounts of the image, normally reflections in puddles or shiny surfaces, and such reflections offer higher quality effects than what you can achieve with rasterization which only does a bad approximation. So that's a benefit to the gamer because we can make these things look better using new techniques.

There's a list of RTX games here https://www.overclockers.co.uk/foru...ames-benchmarks-software-etc-thread.18898329/

14 games out now, and another 15 out soon. And again your stance on this is somewhat reinforcing what I said about dichotomy. Technology doesn't just magically appear one day fully formed in all it's glory, completely and totally polished and ready to be used. It's a slow process of refining the tech and rolling it out to users and having them buy into the tech and then iterating on it and making it better over the years until it gets to where we want it. If everyone was like you and dismissed it as a gimmick in the form it is now then it'd never get made because no one would buy into it and thus you wouldn't get that slow incremental advancement that is core to driving all technology growth.

What you're doing is trying to dismiss this as a gimmick because it's not all 100% ray tracing like the marbles tech demo, therefor why care? And that is what I'm saying is the false dichotomy here, it's not all or nothing, we don't need 100% ray tracing before we see a benefit of it, we can use ray tracing for small parts of the scene and see small fidelity increases.

 

[g67575]

Ray Tracing is impressive, but I think most are looking for more powerful graphics cards to run games at 4k resolution this year. RT is optional, not something game developers have to implement (especially if it heavily impacts performance) because it doesn't impact gameplay much / at all.

It does look impressive in Watchdogs: Legion though, which has some very realistic looking reflections for cars, pavements and puddles.

 

[TrM]

Ray Tracing is impressive, but I think most are looking for more powerful graphics cards to run games at 4k resolution this year. RT is optional, not something game developers have to implement because it doesn't impact gameplay much / at all. It does look impressive in Watchdogs: Legion though.

RT will become a lot more common in many games thanks to consoles having it now. Most multi platform games are designed for consoles if Xbox and ps5 both make RT a standard in games which is very likely then everyone on pc will have to have a RT card to match consoles