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AMD Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000) - *** NO COMPETITOR HINTING ***

94% of steam users still game at 1080p or lower. You have to remember that this is an enthusiasts forum and doesn't reflect the real world.

That was rather my point though.

Read what I was saying rather than "riding to the defence" of 1080p gamers.

When any modern graphics card can do 1080p half asleep, it doesn't really need any work optimising for. It wouldn't matter if 99.9% were still suckered into staying 1080p, if the graphics hardware will do it with it's eyes closed, it's time to move (engineering hours previous spent creating 1080p optimisations) on. The folks playing at 1080p with a 5.4ghz Intel chip pumping a 1080 with enough instructions to not be sat at 30-60% idle are into vanishingly tiny percentages.

I'd guarantee 200+ fps@1080p is a smaller market than 4k.

The vast majority are on 1060's or below at the minute, even then, pretty much anything they buy (new) from now will absolutely knock 60fps 1080p out of the park without even trying. There's no need to spend effort "optimising" it. It'll just have the GPU sat doing even less work.
 
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just to clarify the full length pcie ports wouldnt all be running at 16x. Probably one at 16x, and two at 4x.

My current intel mainstream board has 6 pcie slots (3full and 3 mini) and its a £200 board, so didnt consider it unrealistic.

If there isnt even enough pcie lanes for that then thats a flaw with the chipset and they need to boost it.

What I asked for is basically an imitation of my current board but on a AMD platform, with the difference that the m.2 doesnt steal lanes from SATA, and that all 4 dimm slots are capable of decent speeds. The idea that the v4 lanes can be split into v3 lanes is a good one and that would be one way to achieve what I asked. Or do AMD mainstream boards have less lanes than mainstream intel boards?

https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6/

  • 3 PCIe 3.0 x16, 3 PCIe 3.0 x1, 1 M.2 (Key E)

Mainstream board ^^, runs at 8/8/4 in triple config, but I would be ok with 16/4/4 or 16/8/4 also. So the requirement isnt 16/16/16.

The spec may surprise some people who are used to the Asus ROG tax, as equivalent boards to this from asus are circa £300 :)
 
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It can be done if m.2 disable PCIE slots instead of SATA ports.

We wont see a 10 port SATA board, probably 8 slots max with 2 been ASMEDIA ports.
My Asus PRIME X370-PRO has 8 SATA ports, none of which is ASMedia. It has some PCIe slots that share lanes (configurable) so I guess that's where they get the extra bandwidth from.
 
just to clarify the full length pcie ports wouldnt all be running at 16x. Probably one at 16x, and two at 4x.

My current intel mainstream board has 6 pcie slots (3full and 3 mini) and its a £200 board, so didnt consider it unrealistic.

But your Intel board doesn't actually have that many lanes that are 'real', it uses 24 lanes, pushed into 4 lanes through the chipset and has access to 16 lanes directly from the CPU. So your 24 chipset lanes can only offer 4x lane bandwidth at any one time, there fore making it a serious bottleneck if you are using those devices at the same time as each other.

Lets take an example, you've got your board with 3 16x slots running at 16x for the GPU, then the others are running at 4x as you mentioned, and you chose to populate these with PCI-E SSD's (we know how much you disklike M.2 drives) since both of the 4x slots are now going through the chipset you are going to be having only 50% of the bandwidth accessible per drive, and thus performing sub-optimally. If all you want to do is have lots of devices connected an only use one at a time (4x +) or lots of 1x devices then that is fine, but otherwise what you are asking for is HEDT TR style PCI-E lanes.

What I asked for is basically an imitation of my current board but on a AMD platform, with the difference that the m.2 doesnt steal lanes from SATA, and that all 4 dimm slots are capable of decent speeds. The idea that the v4 lanes can be split into v3 lanes is a good one and that would be one way to achieve what I asked. Or do AMD mainstream boards have less lanes than mainstream intel boards?

AMD actually have 20 lanes from the CPU, and 4 lanes dedicated to the chipset for AM4, but the layout means they don't use a multiplier like Intel to make the 4x lanes of the chipset in to 24x fake lanes, so the boards might look inferior but actually offer the same capability of peak performance, with an extra 4x lanes from the CPU for another 4x PCI-E device, such as a M.2 drive at full speed.

The main thing to remember is that AMD is an SoC and the chipset is not actually needed at all.
 
One thing to consider with the new generation is that NUMA will be a thing of the past. And that's a major downside of Threadripper when compared to AM4 for a general purpose machine that includes gaming.

If there's a chip released like the 1900 in this generation with the same core count as top end AM4 Ryzen and near enough price, I'd be up for that. You'd get an abundance of PCIe lanes for no compromise gpu and storage configurations.

The new X499 boards will be very expensive though? But then X399 boards I'd expect to find fairly cheap after the new gen is launched.
 
Some big requirements! lol.

I require:

2x SATA ports
1x Gig NIC (though 10Gb would be nice, may consider that soon due to NAS usage)
1x 16x pcie slot
1x M.2 NVMe (Don't care where)
Decent VRM (Like the powerful and cool CH6)
Fully featured bios (Overclocking, memory timings etc)
Only 2 DIMMs but Memory controller that is preferably better than current Gen, i.e. Easier 3433MHz+
At least 4 USB 3.0 type A ports
Front USB 3.0 headers

I don't just game either, it's my DAW, I have VMs and often video editing.
 
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Capable of 3200CL14 ram in all 4 dimm slots. Board vendors struggling with this, often only 2 primary slots capable, just catering to the max 16gig ram crowd.
There's actually design compromise to be made in that between daisy chain and T-topology.
First working to higher speeds with single DIMM per channel, but falling notably from that with four DIMMs.
And second better with all four slots used, but unable to match top speeds because of longer traces to either slots of the channel.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Ryzen_Memory_Tweaking_Overclocking_Guide/4.html

But I think we'll see improved enough memory controller to do at least that on all four slots.


What I asked for is basically an imitation of my current board but on a AMD platform, with the difference that the m.2 doesnt steal lanes from SATA
From where do you want M.2 slot to conjure that SATA compatibility when using SATA signaled drive?
It needs to access one SATA port when filled with SATA drive, or it can't work with SATA drives.
Just like some PCI-e lanes for NVMe are shared with x1 slots.
 
We already have a mobo that does 4 dimms at CL14, it's called a CH6 and it's an X370.

Maybe I should have clarified more but I'd like to see 4 dims at 3200CL14 be easier. It certainly is possible but my only previous experience with timings has been set the xmp profile and off you go. So I'm willing to accept I am a noob at it but using the presents / calculators / guides I couldn't get 4dimms at 3200CL14 on a 2700x/CH7 and that is using B die too. That was at release though so have been meaning to try again on a newer bios.
 
Most X370/470 boards only have 6 physical ports so I assume the two missing ones are used for secondary M.2 slots or something.
Cheaper boards could also leave some ports of chipset unused.

And Ryzen itself includes also two SATA express ports, sharing connections with four PCIe lanes, which are routed to primary M.2 slot.
Hence difference in what storage devices main M.2 slot of boards supports depending on if it's Zen based CPU or earlier APU.
 
I'm starting to think I might wait for the Threadripper release in 2020 or 2021 rather than the one coming out this year. My current computer can cope for an extra year or two and then I'd have the advantage of having PCIe 5 and USB 4.0 both of which will help with my workloads.
 
But your Intel board doesn't actually have that many lanes that are 'real', it uses 24 lanes, pushed into 4 lanes through the chipset and has access to 16 lanes directly from the CPU. So your 24 chipset lanes can only offer 4x lane bandwidth at any one time, there fore making it a serious bottleneck if you are using those devices at the same time as each other.

Lets take an example, you've got your board with 3 16x slots running at 16x for the GPU, then the others are running at 4x as you mentioned, and you chose to populate these with PCI-E SSD's (we know how much you disklike M.2 drives) since both of the 4x slots are now going through the chipset you are going to be having only 50% of the bandwidth accessible per drive, and thus performing sub-optimally. If all you want to do is have lots of devices connected an only use one at a time (4x +) or lots of 1x devices then that is fine, but otherwise what you are asking for is HEDT TR style PCI-E lanes.



AMD actually have 20 lanes from the CPU, and 4 lanes dedicated to the chipset for AM4, but the layout means they don't use a multiplier like Intel to make the 4x lanes of the chipset in to 24x fake lanes, so the boards might look inferior but actually offer the same capability of peak performance, with an extra 4x lanes from the CPU for another 4x PCI-E device, such as a M.2 drive at full speed.

The main thing to remember is that AMD is an SoC and the chipset is not actually needed at all.

The peak performance isnt the issue, but the flexibility of configuration is, I wouldnt be utilising all SATA ports, all USB ports, all PCIE slots at same time.

So it seems the issue is the AMD boards because of this lack of multiplier cannot offer this configuration on mainstream?

Given this severe limitation, it would seem those 4 lanes from cpu to m.2 is extremely wasteful.

I would route those 4 lanes to a pcie slot instead or even better a bridge chip which can multiply the lanes into virtual lanes. Then you have a multipurpose flexible use for it, if you still want to use it for nvme then you can do so via a nvme m.2 card or a pcie SSD.

Basically the equivalent of the entire chipset allocation of bandwidth is sent to a single m.2 slot?

Also you really sure they dont support multiplication? I mean my cheap b450 board even has 4 pcie slots on top of 4 AMD sata ports, asmedia x2 SATA ports, plus USB etc. I expect only the primary pcie is fed from cpu, so the rest is coming from these 4 lanes. The pcie slots are pci express 2 so halved capacity, but there seems to be some multiplication still ongoing.

So I think These new boards could have pci express 3 slots fed from chipset (so only half lane needed to feed a x1 slot).
Pci express full sized slot fed from those spare 4 lanes on cpu so its a x4 not needed from chipset.
Pci express full sized slot fed from chipset but v2, so uses 2 lanes not 4. Share this with m.2 via bridge so if both in use at same time they slow down or something.
One lane can feed 2 more pci express v3 x1 slots.
One lane usb, one lane sata.

This would be almost as good with just 1 less x1 pcie slot than my current config, the sacrifice been the loss of the m.2 slot with its dedicated cpu lanes.

Seems really tho both intel and amd been very tight on chipset lanes, 4 lanes seems a pittance.
 
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The peak performance isnt the issue, but the flexibility of configuration is, I wouldnt be utilising all SATA ports, all USB ports, all PCIE slots at same time.

So it seems the issue is the AMD boards because of this lack of multiplier cannot offer this configuration on mainstream?

If you need that many devices connected all at once, then you'll have to either keep what you have now, or wait until a manufacturer decides to make an X570 board with lots of PCI-E 4.0 converted down to 3.0.

Seems really tho both intel and amd been very tight on chipset lanes, 4 lanes seems a pittance.

Let's not forget that PCI-E 3.0 has been around since 2011 and the Z68 chipset, and it will have been 8 years come July since MSI introduced the Z68A-GD80 (G3) which I believe was the first mainstream board to support PCI-E 3.0, and July looks like when 4.0 will debut. Back then I don't think anybody though it would take the best part of a decade for 3.0 to be superseded, not to mention how easily you can now saturate the PCI-E lanes due to super fast disk subsystems and 10GBe etc.

Intel has basically the same design for the CPU/Chipset configuration it did back in 2009, ans it does 10 years later, at least AMD have moved to SoC and expanded the HEDT segment from 40 lanes to 64+
 
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There's actually design compromise to be made in that between daisy chain and T-topology.
First working to higher speeds with single DIMM per channel, but falling notably from that with four DIMMs.
And second better with all four slots used, but unable to match top speeds because of longer traces to either slots of the channel.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Ryzen_Memory_Tweaking_Overclocking_Guide/4.html

But I think we'll see improved enough memory controller to do at least that on all four slots.


From where do you want M.2 slot to conjure that SATA compatibility when using SATA signaled drive?
It needs to access one SATA port when filled with SATA drive, or it can't work with SATA drives.
Just like some PCI-e lanes for NVMe are shared with x1 slots.

Right so if I understand you right.

To maximise the 2 primary slots it compromises the secondary slots, so a board vendor chooses between best 4 dimm performance and best 2 dimm performance? the latter obviously has the better marketing as people tend to just look at peak speeds.

so maybe the choice would be e.g.

primary dimm slot up to 4133mhz
secondary dimm slots up to 3000mhz

marketing up to 4133mhz

or

primary dimm slots up to 3433mhz
secondary dimm slots upto 3433 mhz

marketing upto 3433mhz

I would say the latter is deffo better, but marketing team wins.

I feel whether a board is daisy chained or t-topology should be on official specifications page for board.

My current intel board I expect is daisy chain given the issues I had with secondary slots.
 
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On the subject of 2 Dimm boards, has anyone seen/heard gossip that vendors with extreme boards might start making AMD versions - For example ASUS Apex?

If these are the new performance kings and two dimm is the way surely a consideration? Would love to get a replacement for my Apex on some mega new Ryzen silicon.
 
On the subject of 2 Dimm boards, has anyone seen/heard gossip that vendors with extreme boards might start making AMD versions - For example ASUS Apex?

If these are the new performance kings and two dimm is the way surely a consideration? Would love to get a replacement for my Apex on some mega new Ryzen silicon.

I'd wet myself if a X570 version of the Maximus XI Gene showed up. Hell, just reading the words "Crosshair VIII Impact" made me quiver!
 
I'd wet myself if a X570 version of the Maximus XI Gene showed up. Hell, just reading the words "Crosshair VIII Impact" made me quiver!

I don’t want little Gene I mean equivalent of Apex or EVGA Dark (they don’t do AMD though as far as I know).

Probably not but we will see!
 
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