AMD Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000) - *** NO COMPETITOR HINTING ***

[d_brennen]

Actually server chips don't need those highest clocking dies.

That's not what I said...

 

[kitfit1]

Other CPU's have been leaked, right down to the Ryzen 3 3300.

So i don't know what to make of that,. usually AMD release the lower end Ryzen about a month or two after the mid and high range, usually its Ryzen 7, then one month Later Ryzen 5 and as much as another two months Ryzen 3 and APU's.

That then explains the AMD presence at CES, as i said earlier in the thread. They are going to pull Ryzen 2 forward from it's original release date. That could also explain the sudden releases of new bios's recently. My CH6 for example has been running 6201 since June last year, suddenly in the middle of December Asus release 6401. The main difference to me was the lack of ability to enable or disable PBO.
Skip forward to now, it strikes me that maybe the way PBO works on Ryzen 2 is slightly different so needs to be enabled by default. What i'm saying is, 6401 could be the release bios to drop Ryzen 2 in.

 

[humbug]

I'm fully aware that won't scale linearly, except maybe at its optimum efficiency clock range. If anything, it'll go exponential after that optimum efficiency range, which simply highlights my point further; we're potentially looking at the start of that exponential curve possibly between 4.2-4.3GHz, which then doesn't bode well for clocking much higher. That is my point.
I'm concerned that the figures might suggest that, though if the 135w TDP is just a conservative figure then that curve might not start until later.
I'm simply asking the question; is there something to be concerned about?

Ok, the thing with Zen and Zen+ is they are built on low power mobile nodes, Its a Samsung 3Ghz node, a mobile node.
Now the thing with that is its very efficient upto a point, its actually quoted as a 3Ghz node, its no coincidence that the Ryzen 65 Watt parts are 3Ghz, like the 1700 and 2700 None X.
the problem is when you start to ramp the clocks up on nodes like that, 1.3v+ stock on the higher end SKUs and 1.4v to get 4Ghz 'If you're lucky' on Zen and 4.3Ghz on Zen+ all cores, that's when these CPUs use 100 Watts + compared to sub 65 Watts, Zen / Zen+ cannot clock higher than that because the required volts are just too high.

AMD have no choice but to use mobile nodes as that is all that's available to them, now tho because of a change in contract with GloFo, one that cost them about a Billion $ they can use TSMC who use proper high speed nodes, they clock more like Intel without the need for huge voltages. that adds to the power efficiency at higher clock rates.

 

[pieman109]

Windows activation issues are, for the most part, a thing of the past.

They aren't if your using a retail copy of win 10 (the one that can be moved from one pc to another after a motherboard change) but if you're using an oem version, then you're gonna have to get another license from somewhere, or stump up for a new copy of windows at about £120
That is unless theres another way around this I don't know about.

 

[d1am0nd g33z3r]

They aren't if your using a retail copy of win 10 (the one that can be moved from one pc to another after a motherboard change) but if you're using an oem version, then you're gonna have to get another license from somewhere, or stump up for a new copy of windows at about £120
That is unless theres another way around this I don't know about.

Wasn't the case when I swapped my mobo, and that was on the old "hardware locked" policy before they changed how activation was handled. My Win 10 was a free upgrade, which was from an OEM Win 7. IIRC I just emailed activation team and they issued a new key. Maybe the free upgrade from Win 7 they offered somehow transformed the licence from OEM to Retail, maybe things have changed since then.

 

[humbug]

Mine was a free upgrade from Windows 7, that was originally a Retail key, i don't even have the key anymore, not for a couple of years, never needed it on Windows 10, as long as i installed the hardware before reinstalling windows its always automatically activated, its been about 4 different systems now.

 

[pieman109]

Its probably the fact that it was an upgrade and not an oem. My old system also had an upgrade copy of win 10 from win 7 and that gave me no probs at all. I've since upgraded this pc earlier this year which had a copy of win 10 home oem and I had issues with the activation, I needed to source a product key to get the installation to activate. I've also upgraded at least 3 more systems and every one had an oem copy of windows which meant I had to source a replacement product key, and every upgrade involved a mobo change.

 

[humbug]

I think its because you are using OEM keys, they are intended to be locked to the first system they are activated on.

 

[Thekwango]

They aren't if your using a retail copy of win 10 (the one that can be moved from one pc to another after a motherboard change) but if you're using an oem version, then you're gonna have to get another license from somewhere, or stump up for a new copy of windows at about £120
That is unless theres another way around this I don't know about.

licenses/keys aren't needed anymore as far as i can remember. you create a digital account, i.e. setup a Microsoft (outlook.com) account and tie it to your win10 install. you use that to activate any fresh install on new hardware.

 

[Flying_Hellfish]

Nothing useful to add apart from how excited I am to finally have a viable upgrade from my very old but still capable [email protected].

Built a 1700x system for a mate just before Christmas and was very impressed

That 3700x is looking tempting

Yeah I'm really tempted by these.

 

[4K8KW10]

It is painful to see limited people's opinions, now they will do that:


https://www.techpowerup.com/251129/...neup-leaked-by-russian-e-tailer?cp=1#comments

Well, nothing. Just stay with your quad core i3 and better not share any opinions

I am running right now Ryzen 5 2500U 4C/8T at 2GHz/3.6GHz 4MB L3/2MB L2 and when running CS Source at 3840x2160, I see quite a bit of CPU bottlenecking. T
Another thing is that this Ryzen has an iGP which is connected via PCI-e 3.0 x16, while the main graphics card RX 560X via PCI-e 3.0 x8, while GPU-Z reports PCI-e 1.1 x8
Even at 1920x1080, there are moments when the CPU bots require more CPU power.

So, back to answer the limited person. How do these people imagine we will move forward other than adding more CPU cores in the equation?

 

[Murphy]

Ok, the thing with Zen and Zen+ is they are built on low power mobile nodes, Its a Samsung 3Ghz node, a mobile node.

That was true for Zen but not Zen+, the former was manufactured on Global Foundries' 14 nm process Low Power Plus (14LPP) while the latter was manufactured on Global Foundries' 12 nm process Leading-Performance (12LP), an enhanced version of their 14nm process.

 

[LePhuronn]

I'm simply asking the question; is there something to be concerned about?

And a few people have said already "no"

 

[LePhuronn]

licenses/keys aren't needed anymore as far as i can remember. you create a digital account, i.e. setup a Microsoft (outlook.com) account and tie it to your win10 install. you use that to activate any fresh install on new hardware.

There is still a hardware lock in place if you're not Retail. Whether it's specifically tied to the motherboard or has a fixed number of changes I don't know.

My other half registered her W10 (free upgrade version from an Action Pack key) with a Microsoft account when that option appeared in the Anniversary update. At the time she was on a Phenom II X2 550 BE, Asus AM3 board and 4GB Kingston RAM. I scored a cheap X6 1090T, dropped that in with 8GB Corsair RAM upgrade and Windows didn't complain. Then her board died so I replaced it with a Gigabyte AM3+ board and Windows deactivated claiming it was a new system.

On the face of it, yes they are different systems: first registered as X2 550 BE on Asus, failed activation as X6 1090T on Gigabyte, but the CPU and RAM change between the board changes didn't cause a problem.

 

[Thekwango]

There is still a hardware lock in place if you're not Retail. Whether it's specifically tied to the motherboard or has a fixed number of changes I don't know.

My other half registered her W10 (free upgrade version from an Action Pack key) with a Microsoft account when that option appeared in the Anniversary update. At the time she was on a Phenom II X2 550 BE, Asus AM3 board and 4GB Kingston RAM. I scored a cheap X6 1090T, dropped that in with 8GB Corsair RAM upgrade and Windows didn't complain. Then her board died so I replaced it with a Gigabyte AM3+ board and Windows deactivated claiming it was a new system.

On the face of it, yes they are different systems: first registered as X2 550 BE on Asus, failed activation as X6 1090T on Gigabyte, but the CPU and RAM change between the board changes didn't cause a problem.

Admittedly it can definitely be a bit ‘precious’ - my Ryzen board died and was replaced (identical model) and like days of old refused to authenticate. But a live chat with microsoft resolved the issue. From memory all I supplied them with was the email address tied to the os and a reason for the change/reinstall.

 

[Murphy]

I'm simply asking the question; is there something to be concerned about?

No.

Spoiler

The reason why i don't think it will is because AMD have done a pretty good job with XFR, we don't see manual overclocks getting much higher than what XFR can reach, I've typically seen reviewers getting an extra 100MHz over what XFR can achieve, however that comes at the cost of having to disable most of the auto parts of overclocking and running each core at it's maximum ACT instead of allowing a single core to clock higher if need be.

Basically you're probably better of allowing XFR to do it's thing and the turbo figures they've used on previous Ryzen's have been pretty close to the actual maximum capabilities.

 

[Davedree]

I'm fully aware that won't scale linearly, except maybe at its optimum efficiency clock range. If anything, it'll go exponential after that optimum efficiency range, which simply highlights my point further; we're potentially looking at the start of that exponential curve possibly between 4.2-4.3GHz, which then doesn't bode well for clocking much higher. That is my point.
I'm concerned that the figures might suggest that, though if the 135w TDP is just a conservative figure then that curve might not start until later.
I'm simply asking the question; is there something to be concerned about?

Tdp isn't the metric to be concerned with really.
Current draw and this with the Capability of the process node to scale with the architecture is.
Until we see release we'll then be able to tell, with some voltage/Freq scaling plots.
The Gf12nm process was a bit of an (efficient-half turd) for Zen+ and Polaris, I certainly wasn't impressed with it's headroom. However with the tsmc(hp) I think we should see an all core (chiplet) scaling around 4.6/4.7 GHz @1.15-1.25v. Or in other words with realistic expectations I think this is where they need to hit to be on track.

 

[humbug]

That was true for Zen but not Zen+, the former was manufactured on Global Foundries' 14 nm process Low Power Plus (14LPP) while the latter was manufactured on Global Foundries' 12 nm process Leading-Performance (12LP), an enhanced version of their 14nm process.

an enhanced version of their 14nm process. The enhanced process provides up to 15% higher density or up to 10% higher performance. 12LP brings around a 10% frequency bump for the Ryzen lineup at the same power envelopes.

Is Zen+ not about a 10% frequency bump over Zen?

12nm is as they say in your link just a small improvement over the original 14nm, they are in fact the same thing, just shrunk by 2nm.

 

[humbug]

Is Zen+ not about a 10% frequency bump over Zen?

12nm is as they say in your link just a small improvement over the original 14nm, they are in fact the same thing, just shrunk by 2nm.

In fact i said this, pretty much, in the post you quoted...

Ok, the thing with Zen and Zen+ is they are built on low power mobile nodes, Its a Samsung 3Ghz node, a mobile node.
Now the thing with that is its very efficient upto a point, its actually quoted as a 3Ghz node, its no coincidence that the Ryzen 65 Watt parts are 3Ghz, like the 1700 and 2700 None X.
the problem is when you start to ramp the clocks up on nodes like that, 1.3v+ stock on the higher end SKUs and 1.4v to get 4Ghz 'If you're lucky' on Zen and 4.3Ghz on Zen+ all cores, that's when these CPUs use 100 Watts + compared to sub 65 Watts, Zen / Zen+ cannot clock higher than that because the required volts are just too high.

AMD have no choice but to use mobile nodes as that is all that's available to them, now tho because of a change in contract with GloFo, one that cost them about a Billion $ they can use TSMC who use proper high speed nodes, they clock more like Intel without the need for huge voltages. that adds to the power efficiency at higher clock rates.

I have explained the difference between 12nm and 14 GloFo many times in this room.

 

[Murphy]

Is Zen+ not about a 10% frequency bump over Zen?

12nm is as they say in your link just a small improvement over the original 14nm, they are in fact the same thing, just shrunk by 2nm.

Yes, but you said Zen and Zen+ were built on low power mobile nodes, Zen was but with Zen+ they modified that low power mobile node so it wasn't a low power mobile node anymore.

There not the same thing in the same way as converting a 2 bedroom house into a 4 bedroom house is not the same thing, it's still a house but by adding two bedrooms you've made pretty substantial changes.