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AMD Zen 2 (Ryzen 3000) - *** NO COMPETITOR HINTING ***

Murphy said:
Yes, but you said Zen and Zen+ were built on low power mobile nodes, Zen was but with Zen+ they modified that low power mobile node so it wasn't a low power mobile node anymore.

There not the same thing in the same way as converting a 2 bedroom house into a 4 bedroom house is not the same thing, it's still a house but by adding two bedrooms you've made pretty substantial changes.
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You're splitting 'Straws' 12nm is an enhancement on the original 14nm, they are the same thing refined, shrunk, Boosts of 4Ghz vs 4.35Ghz and all core overclocks still requires 1.3v and 1.4v+ respectively, its just a 10% improvement on the original, exactly as they describe it.
 
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humbug said:
You're splitting 'Straws' 12nm is an enhancement on the original 14nm, they are the same thing refined, shrunk, Boosts of 4Ghz vs 4.35Ghz and all core overclocks still requires 1.3v and 1.4v+ respectively, its just a 10% improvement on the original, exactly as they describe it.
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Well that's just daft, it's like saying 14nm is the same thing as 32nm as they're the same thing refined, they're not because they're fundamentally different, 14nm uses 9 tracks whereas 12nm uses 7.5, 14nm cells height is 576nm whereas 12nm is only 480nm, the contact areas are different, the height of the contact barrier is different, and the fins are thinner and taller, it's not as you originally stated built on low power mobile node.
 
humbug said:
You're splitting 'Straws' 12nm is an enhancement on the original 14nm, they are the same thing refined, shrunk, Boosts of 4Ghz vs 4.35Ghz and all core overclocks still requires 1.3v and 1.4v+ respectively, its just a 10% improvement on the original, exactly as they describe it.
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I'd go with humbug on this. It's not 4 bedrooms. It's a small box room/attic conversion at best using your analogy Murphy vs a completely redesigned 4/5 bed in a nicer part of town.

The lithography sets what track and pad sizes can be used which are as important to chip design as foundation is to a house.

7nm tsmc is using materials twice as good in the foundation and putting a vastly better designed house on top rather than just adding a bit to what's already there.

It's NOT just a shrink. It's a fundamentally different lithograph process. Edit: and ok. 12nm wasn't just a shrink either but it still has the same base

A better analogy would be 12nm is solar power with improved photovoltaic cells. It's neat, it's power efficient and it's had a first pass at improvements to improve its performance.

7nm is...More like nuclear or, to not sound hyperbolic, gas or oil. It's meant to go faster without the "greener" thought process behind it.
 
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I knew i shouldn't have used an analogy. :)

Also the size of the lithography has largely been meaningless marketing rubbish for almost a decade, since everyone moved over to FinFet's.
 
Murphy said:
I knew i shouldn't have used an analogy. :)

Also the size of the lithography has largely been meaningless marketing rubbish for almost a decade, since everyone moved over to FinFet's.
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Lol, fair.

Apologies for picking on your analogy but the difference genuinely is that glofo's 14 and 12 had the same origin. It's still a modified, power efficient process.
7nm tsmc seems to have been build to a rather different philosophy.

We're all rather at a point of semantics. ("what amount of difference signifies a legitimately different litho process?").
 
Mercutio said:
Lol, fair.

Apologies for picking on your analogy but the difference genuinely is that glofo's 14 and 12 had the same origin. It's still a modified, power efficient process.
7nm tsmc seems to have been build to a rather different philosophy.

We're all rather at a point of semantics. ("what amount of difference signifies a legitimately different litho process?").
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On that i agree, both the 14nm Zen and 12nm Zen+ are refinements on the original Samsung 14nm, what i was taking issue with was saying, or at least imply, that 12nm Zen+ was a refinement of the 14nm Zen.

I know analogies are flawed but it's like saying 12nm Zen+ is the grandson of Samsung 14nm when it should really be another son, they're both off shoots of the original design rather than Zen+ being an off shoot of Zen, if that makes sense.

It's just IMO it does Zen+ a disservice to call it a refined mobile design.
 
Potatowithearsontheside said:
You should post semantics in American English as opposed to...English.
American English is always right.
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I wonder where American English came from? ;) Probably something to do with the "Thirteen British Colonies". Trouble with lending things out, they often don't get returned in the same state they were in when they were lent out lol
 
Murphy said:
On that i agree, both the 14nm Zen and 12nm Zen+ are refinements on the original Samsung 14nm, what i was taking issue with was saying, or at least imply, that 12nm Zen+ was a refinement of the 14nm Zen.

I know analogies are flawed but it's like saying 12nm Zen+ is the grandson of Samsung 14nm when it should really be another son.
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That was not my point, however it is, Zen+ is a microcode tweak on Zen to improve the inter-core latency improving IPC by about 4%.

The node it is built on is an enhancement of the same 14nm.
 
pieman109 said:
That is unless theres another way around this I don't know about.
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Don't use windows :p

humbug said:
Mine was a free upgrade from Windows 7, that was originally a Retail key, i don't even have the key anymore, not for a couple of years, never needed it on Windows 10, as long as i installed the hardware before reinstalling windows its always automatically activated, its been about 4 different systems now.
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The amount of times you reinstall I doubt it even bothers to check any more. :D
Troezar said:
I wonder where American English came from? ;) Probably something to do with the "Thirteen British Colonies". Trouble with lending things out, they often don't get returned in the same state they were in when they were lent out lol
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That's an understatement!
 
humbug said:
That was not my point, however it is, Zen+ is a microcode tweak on Zen to improve the inter-core latency improving IPC by about 4%.

The node it is built on is an enhancement of the same 14nm.
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There's not enough No's in the world for that, Zen+ is not a microcode tweak on Zen, the engineering is fundamentally different, i assume you've read the articles i posted so you know full well they're different so i can only assume you're being obstinate for no reason so maybe it's best if we agree to disagree.
 
Murphy said:
There's not enough No's in the world for that, Zen+ is not a microcode tweak on Zen, the engineering is fundamentally different, i assume you've read the articles i posted so you know full well they're different so i can only assume you're being obstinate for no reason so maybe it's best if we agree to disagree.
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I did and the only disagreement it has with me is stating a 3% IPC gain as opposed to my 4%.

If you see something in it that does disagree with me please point me to it, and don't try and data bomb, if you know what you're talking about you can point right at it.
 
Murphy said:
That was true for Zen but not Zen+, the former was manufactured on Global Foundries' 14 nm process Low Power Plus (14LPP) while the latter was manufactured on Global Foundries' 12 nm process Leading-Performance (12LP), an enhanced version of their 14nm process.
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That was GloFo's marketing naming for "We still don't have proper high performance node, but pretend otherwise".
Better name would have been 14nm+.
Intel has had similar clock speed bumbs for their 14nm.


Murphy said:
14nm uses 9 tracks whereas 12nm uses 7.5, 14nm cells height is 576nm whereas 12nm is only 480nm, the contact areas are different, the height of the contact barrier is different, and the fins are thinner and taller, it's not as you originally stated built on low power mobile node.
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I've read from few clearly knowleable (about CPU design and manufacturing) people that AMD didn't even use much of those/changes are really minor to not need much of chip redesign.
There's lots of R&D cost in making real physical changes to chip and retesting everything etc.
Something AMD really couldn't afford to waste resources, with lot bigger goal of 7nm and maturing Zen architecture in Zen2 in mind.
(+ Intel's 10nm plans to catch up)
 
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