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AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

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Soldato
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As a b450 Max owner that was intending to upgrade.... What a load of BS, they just lost one processor sale and lets say i will think twice before buying anything of them, one generation motherboard....
I mean, that's just not true. B450 supports three generations of Ryzen CPUs, and it launched alongside Zen+ rather than Zen 2 (the Max didn't, but that was MSI fixing their own **** up, not AMD releasing a new series of boards). You just happen to own what's apparently going to be the last one. It's like saying that Z390 was a one-generation motherboard because it launched alongside the 9000 series, but you could technically go back and put an 8000 series chip in it if you wanted to.

Its just Intel level tactics really. The BIOS reason is a load of tosh. Plenty of B450/X570 motherboards have 32mb BIOSes.
But plenty don't. So then you're left with a situation where AMD can't possibly say that a chipset supports the new CPUs when a large number of X370, X470 and B450 boards won't due to manufacturers making cost-cutting decisions at the time, leaving an even more farcical situation than the one that happened at Zen 2's launch (which people complained about and blamed AMD for, rather than the board vendors). I can't say I blame them for wanting to avoid that this time. I suspect it might be the case that you'll see "unofficial" support provided by motherboard manufacturers on some older boards anyway. First-gen Ryzen wasn't officially supported on X570 boards, yet now works on many of them after board vendors added support of their own accord. But with this announcement, nobody can justifiably say that AMD ever promised them Zen 3 support on B450, even if it was assumed by many that that'd be the case, whereas the other option of announcing support and then half the boards not being able to get a BIOS update would be even worse. It's bad PR either way, but this seems like the lesser of two evils.
 
Caporegime
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Stick with what you have?? You have a Ryzen 5 3600. I would skip Zen3,and wait for Zen4. B550/X570 might be dead-end too,ie,there is no guarentee Zen4 will work in it.



Problem with this is the 300 series were technically one generation behind already,as B450 launched for Zen+ and AMD kept it as the mainstream Zen2 chipset for a year now. If the B550 had launched last year,there would be less annoyance. This will affect probably most DIY Zen2 builds,as X570 was very expensive at launch! To now have patchy BIOS support,for a currently mainstream chipset is not really ideal,and AMD really FUBAR'ed this up.

Yeah.... you're right, i fancy a new case now, lost interest in the board, the New BeQuiet case that's been all over reviews lately looks like a winner! my Phanteks Pro-M is looking decidedly dated with its acrylic side window. And its too large, i like the look of these more compact cases with more high pressure airflow.
 
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It sucks, because you can imagine motherboard manufacturers are even less incentivised, *cough* ASUS, to update their bioses to support zen 3. B450 have been highly recommended as a budget way of getting onboard with Ryzen. Poses the question why bother getting a high end board? x470 owners will be ******.

I hope zen 3 is great though.
 
Soldato
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But plenty don't. So then you're left with a situation where AMD can't possibly say that a chipset supports the new CPUs when a large number of X370, X470 and B450 boards won't due to manufacturers making cost-cutting decisions at the time, leaving an even more farcical situation than the one that happened at Zen 2's launch (which people complained about and blamed AMD for, rather than the board vendors). I can't say I blame them for wanting to avoid that this time. I suspect it might be the case that you'll see "unofficial" support provided by motherboard manufacturers on some older boards anyway. First-gen Ryzen wasn't officially supported on X570 boards, yet now works on many of them after board vendors added support of their own accord. But with this announcement, nobody can justifiably say that AMD ever promised them Zen 3 support on B450, even if it was assumed by many that that'd be the case, whereas the other option of announcing support and then half the boards not being able to get a BIOS update would be even worse. It's bad PR either way, but this seems like the lesser of two evils.

They can always say "limited" rollout for motherboards with 32M BIOSes. That way AMD looks good,and its on motherboard OEMs to handle it.

My motherboard has a 32mb BIOS and its from 2018,and AMD were very vague with their platform support through 2020. They allowed the viewpoint to stick as it suited their marketing over Intel. Then you have companies like Schenker who make desktop replacement notebooks saying B450 only needs a microcode update for Zen3. The problem is if B450 was replaced a few months into the Zen2 launch with the proper B550 motherboards,there would be less disappointment . Sure many Zen+ users,but this time you have lots of current Zen2 users,maybe the majority....so AMD really has FUBAR'ed this.How many of those people are new converts from Intel,who thought AMD would treat them better....even if AMD still extends its lead with Zen3,it worries me by doing this,once Intel even looks like it partially fixed its problems,many of them might move back to Intel when we move to DDR5.

In the end,you have to consider if someone has to change the CPU and the motherboard,they might as well wait another year or two to see what else is around,maybe save up for some faster RAM,etc.

Yeah.... you're right, i fancy a new case now, lost interest in the board, the New BeQuiet case that's been all over reviews lately looks like a winner! my Phanteks Pro-M is looking decidedly dated with its acrylic side window. And its too large, i like the look of these more compact cases with more high pressure airflow.

They want you to get a new motherboard and a new CPU,so my viewpoint,is if you have do that anyway,just wait longer.
 
Caporegime
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They can always say "limited" rollout for motherboards with 32M BIOSes. That way AMD looks good,and its on motherboard OEMs to handle it.

My motherboard has a 32mb BIOS and its from 2018,and AMD were very vague with their platform support through 2020. They allowed the viewpoint to stick as it suited their marketing over Intel. Then you have companies like Schenker who make desktop replacement notebooks saying B450 only needs a microcode update for Zen3. The problem is if B450 was replaced a few months into the Zen2 launch with the proper B550 motherboards,there would be less disappointment . Sure many Zen+ users,but this time you have lots of current Zen2 users,maybe the majority....so AMD really has FUBAR'ed this.How many of those people are new converts from Intel,who thought AMD would treat them better....even if AMD still extends its lead with Zen3,it worries me by doing this,once Intel even looks like it partially fixed its problems,many of them might move back to Intel when we move to DDR5.

In the end,you have to consider if someone has to change the CPU and the motherboard,they might as well wait another year or two to see what else is around,maybe save up for some faster RAM,etc.



They want you to get a new motherboard and a new CPU,so my viewpoint,is if you have do that anyway,just wait longer.

Right, and i will, when i upgrade my 3'rd gen Ryzen, Zen 3 needs to be something special to tempt me away from my trusty 3600.
 
Soldato
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Right, and i will, when i upgrade my 3'rd gen Ryzen, Zen 3 needs to be something special to tempt me away from my trusty 3600.

Zen3 will be a dead-end platform I think,as AMD might want to move to DDR5 after this.

I would wait for Zen4 if you can. If Zen4 is 5NM it might be another increase in cores. If it is when DDR5 is released,I would rather have Zen4 with DDR5,even if Zen4 has a hybrid DDR4/DDR5 memory controller.
 
Soldato
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They can always say "limited" rollout for motherboards with 32M BIOSes. That way AMD looks good,and its on motherboard OEMs to handle it.
But then AMD is throwing the motherboard manufacturers under the bus (again). There were a lot of reports that they were very unhappy with AMD around the time of Zen 2's launch, and ultimately AMD has to keep them satisfied too. You really don't want, say, Asus deciding that they're not going to bother making AMD motherboards any more because it's too much hassle having to design ever-more labyrinthine BIOSes and support a huge stack of motherboards dating back years. There are only so many resources to go around in terms of BIOS development, and at this point there are companies trying to handle BIOS support for an army of AM4 boards across all chipsets and generations. Granted, there's an argument to made that end users shouldn't give a toss about the trials and tribulations of large companies, but ultimately AMD are one of those large companies too, and they're always going to do what they feel is best for business.

The dream of ongoing support for new CPUs across years and years is nice, but there are practical issues that have become obvious and only continue to get bigger as you add more and more complexity to the situation. Zen 2's launch was enough of a ****show in terms of BIOS support, and it would have been even worse this time around.

They allowed the viewpoint to stick as it suited their marketing over Intel.
Or a decision simply hadn't been made. They're now putting this information out there likely five or six months before Zen 3 actually arrives, so it's not like they waited until a couple of weeks before launch and then pulled the rug out. I wonder if real world events have had any influence as well. No company is looking to take on more expense and liability than necessary at this point, with brutal times ahead for the global economy. I doubt AMD fancy the expense of mailing out BIOS upgrade kits again, or motherboard manfacturers fancy spending time and money updating ancient boards to support extreme edge cases. It may be part of the reason for the decision to cut bait now.

The problem is if B450 was replaced a few months into the Zen2 launch with the proper B550 motherboards,there would be less disappointment . Sure many Zen+ users,but this time you have lots of current Zen2 users,maybe the majority....so AMD really has FUBAR'ed this.How many of those people are new converts from Intel,who thought AMD would treat them better....even if AMD still extends its lead with Zen3,it worries me by doing this,once Intel even looks like it partially fixed its problems,many of them might move back to Intel when we move to DDR5.
Not getting B550 out for or around Zen 2's launch was definetly a huge mistake on AMD's part. It's absurd that it's still not even out now, closing in on a year since launch. That's definetly on them. I don't know about people flocking back to Intel though. It's not like you're any better off there in terms of motherboard longevity, and generally much worse off in terms of CPU price/performance. It's kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Equally, DDR5 is going to be extremely expensive when it first arrives, so I don't really buy the notion that somebody who bought a B450 board to save some money and was hoping to hang on to it for years to save even more money would suddenly be rushing out to buy a brand new bleeding edge DDR5 platform as soon as it comes out and paying the large premium that it'll demand for a while.
 
Soldato
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But then AMD is throwing the motherboard manufacturers under the bus (again). There were a lot of reports that they were very unhappy with AMD around the time of Zen 2's launch, and ultimately AMD has to keep them satisfied too. You really don't want, say, Asus deciding that they're not going to bother making AMD motherboards any more because it's too much hassle having to design ever-more labyrinthine BIOSes and support a huge stack of motherboards dating back years. There are only so many resources to go around in terms of BIOS development, and at this point there are companies trying to handle BIOS support for an army of AM4 boards across all chipsets and generations. Granted, there's an argument to made that end users shouldn't give a toss about the trials and tribulations of large companies, but ultimately AMD are one of those large companies too, and they're always going to do what they feel is best for business.

The dream of ongoing support for new CPUs across years and years is nice, but there are practical issues that have become obvious and only continue to get bigger as you add more and more complexity to the situation. Zen 2's launch was enough of a ****show in terms of BIOS support, and it would have been even worse this time around.


Or a decision simply hadn't been made. They're now putting this information out there likely five or six months before Zen 3 actually arrives, so it's not like they waited until a couple of weeks before launch and then pulled the rug out. I wonder if real world events have had any influence as well. No company is looking to take on more expense and liability than necessary at this point, with brutal times ahead for the global economy. I doubt AMD fancy the expense of mailing out BIOS upgrade kits again, or motherboard manfacturers fancy spending time and money updating ancient boards to support extreme edge cases. It may be part of the reason for the decision to cut bait now.


Not getting B550 out for or around Zen 2's launch was definetly a huge mistake on AMD's part. It's absurd that it's still not even out now, closing in on a year since launch. That's definetly on them. I don't know about people flocking back to Intel though. It's not like you're any better off there in terms of motherboard longevity, and generally much worse off in terms of CPU price/performance. It's kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Equally, DDR5 is going to be extremely expensive when it first arrives, so I don't really buy the notion that somebody who bought a B450 board to save some money and was hoping to hang on to it for years to save even more money would suddenly be rushing out to buy a brand new bleeding edge DDR5 platform as soon as it comes out and paying the large premium that it'll demand for a while.

The lack of B550 is the real problem. AMD made the B450 the mainstream chipset for Zen2,and there were new AM4 B450 motherboards people waited for after launch with improvements. AMD knew this too.X570 motherboards were expensive and some of the cheaper ones at launch were poor in terms of VRMs,etc. There were rebadged B450 motherboards made for Cyberpower PC by ASRock which GN tested and worked fine with PCI-E 4.0,etc. The BIOS size issue again is AMD's fault entirely as they made the reference specifications for the platform,so they should have said 32mb BIOSes as standard. This really is on AMD,as much as we can all blame the OEMs,AMD still went with the lie - they could have easily seem all those posts and said,sorry only X570 works. But they were so worried,the extra cost of X570 motherboards might get a few extra Intel sales,they just waited and said nothing.

In the end AMD could have controlled any misconceptions,and they have even responded to Twitter posts with replies to take down any misconceptions. They knew exactly what they were doing here. This is 100% on them,and in the end this is entirely of their making. Very few people will buy a new potential dead-end chipset for an older CPU,but people do have a chance of changing an old CPU for a new one.

The problem is now AMD has forced a CPU and motherboard upgrade which costs more and B450 secondhand prices will now tumble,so for many people they will just hold off now. With the global economy taking a hit this is terrible timing.

Literally everyone I know is on a B450 has said,they intended to probably buy another CPU on the platform,but now won't bother,due to the added cost of a new motherboard and will just wait an extra year or two to see what happens in 2022. So I hope for AMD's sake,Intel does not get its act together by then. That is the problem enthusiasts don't see here,as they change platforms all the time. A motherboard lock-in equals a CPU lock-in,but a new motherboard means its a free for all.

Plus,Intel can't believe this gift horse,all they need to hint is their next generation also works on the Z490,and that socket longevity selling point for AMD isn't there anymore.

Anyway,I hope this kind of proves to people like Intel and Nvidia,AMD is there to look after its own bottomline. They will do what is best for them,which does not mean its best for their customers. They are all the same in the end - charitable when it suits them!
 
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Soldato
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I didnt bought a 570 because i never expected them to pull this **** and i wouldnt make use of pcie x4, they literally pulled a intel move, cant wait to see fanboys trying to spin this **** move.
I wouldn't worry to much as this info is only being taking from a slide shows no official support and that same slide also shows no support for ryzen 3000 chips on b350 / x370 and we know they work fine for those.
 
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index.php


AMD B550 motherboards will feature partial PCI-Express gen 4.0 support. The main PCI-Express x16 slot, and one of the M.2 NVMe slots that are wired to the "Matisse" processor will be PCI-Express gen 4.0, however, all downstream PCIe lanes put out by the B550 chipset are gen 3.0.
 
Soldato
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Zen3 will be a dead-end platform I think,as AMD might want to move to DDR5 after this.

I would wait for Zen4 if you can. If Zen4 is 5NM it might be another increase in cores. If it is when DDR5 is released,I would rather have Zen4 with DDR5,even if Zen4 has a hybrid DDR4/DDR5 memory controller.

Worth noting that for the next gen DDR5 equipped system architectures from AMD/Intel - this will be the first Intel architecture fully overseen by Jim Keller. For those unaware, Jim Keller was the chief architect of Zen. How many revisions he left plans for AMD to continue to improve on the design remains to be seen.

I'm putting my money on Intel's first DDR5 platform (Alderlake) to be a knockout, similar to Sandy Bridge, but I hope I'm wrong, as I'd like AMD to be by next upgrade choice.
 
Soldato
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I wouldn't worry to much as this info is only being taking from a slide shows no official support and that same slide also shows no support for ryzen 3000 chips on b350 / x370 and we know they work fine for those.
It appears a lot of X570 motherboards have smaller 16mb BIOS chips like older B450 motherboards. BIOS size isn't a problem,so hopefully OEMs can do a few BETA BIOSes.

Worth noting that for the next gen DDR5 equipped system architectures from AMD/Intel - this will be the first Intel architecture fully overseen by Jim Keller. For those unaware, Jim Keller was the chief architect of Zen. How many revisions he left plans for AMD to continue to improve on the design remains to be seen.

I'm putting my money on Intel's first DDR5 platform (Alderlake) to be a knockout, similar to Sandy Bridge, but I hope I'm wrong, as I'd like AMD to be by next upgrade choice.

More competition is always good,as it keeps both companies on their toes!
 
Soldato
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Someone linked this thread on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c1dnu3/x570x470x370b450b350a320_am4socket_motherboards/

Look at the list.....not all X570 motherboards have 32mb BIOS chips. Some have 16mb chips.

:D

That, is truly shocking. Over half the X570 boards in that list don't have 32mb bios rom's. I would be very surprised anyone that bought an X570 even thought a mobo at that time didn't have a 32mb bios. There was more than enough talk on this very forum at the time about 32mb bios rom's for Zen 3.
 
Soldato
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That, is truly shocking. Over half the X570 boards in that list don't have 32mb bios rom's. I would be very surprised anyone that bought an X570 even thought a mobo at that time didn't have a 32mb bios. There was more than enough talk on this very forum at the time about 32mb bios rom's for Zen 3.

This is why the AMD official noise,that B450/X470 cannot be supported due to small BIOS chips,is weird,especially since there are B450/X470 motherboards with 32mb BIOS chips. Maybe some other reason will be wheeled out now!! :p
 
Caporegime
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Doesn't make a lot of sense having looked at that table of boards, If space is the issue could they just not release a bios for older chipsets that removes support for the original zen\zen 2 and replaces it with zen 3? A different socket is a different matter, a bit of code removal isn't.
 
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