AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[Deleted member 209350]

I was unhappy with 3700x being priced over £300. Big markup over the 2700x. Not saying that means it was/is a rip-off and might compare OK to 2000 series launch pricing, but despite wanting one I've not been able to justify the outlay. Clearly a better chip than the 2700x but it is nearly double the price and doesn't really stack up as a proposition. Gamers will benefit from the increased IPC but are in most cases better off going for a 3600 and spending the £120 or whatever saving on a better GPU. For people not gaming the 2700x matches the core/thread count of the 3700x and you are then talking fairly modest gains.

So I'm stuck in limbo a bit, I want a 3700x to get a big enough difference to warrant upgrading, but they haven't priced it to a level to tempt me. If I was forced into buying a cpu today due to failure or whatever I'd most likely go with 2700x or perhaps 3600 if there were good deals on. There could even be a scenario whereby further price cuts on the 2000 series would see me jumping ship even if I didn't have to.

There is a price increase which wasn't ideal, but compared to what you get from intel its still very good value.

As long as there isnt another price increase next year and they remain constant, I won't have too much issue with that.

 

[HangTime]

I actually don't have a problem with price increases if there is a big jump in performance (although typically this means I would get a lower end part) or some other benefit like much improved motherboard features (this is much less of an issue these days as the pace of development is much reduced). Many years ago I paid 3x for a CPU what I'd paid for the previous one about 18 months prior, but it offered more than double the performance.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

I was unhappy with 3700x being priced over £300. Big markup over the 2700x. Not saying that means it was/is a rip-off and might compare OK to 2000 series launch pricing, but despite wanting one I've not been able to justify the outlay. Clearly a better chip than the 2700x but it is nearly double the price and doesn't really stack up as a proposition. Gamers will benefit from the increased IPC but are in most cases better off going for a 3600 and spending the £120 or whatever saving on a better GPU. For people not gaming the 2700x matches the core/thread count of the 3700x and you are then talking fairly modest gains.

So I'm stuck in limbo a bit, I want a 3700x to get a big enough difference to warrant upgrading, but they haven't priced it to a level to tempt me. If I was forced into buying a cpu today due to failure or whatever I'd most likely go with 2700x or perhaps 3600 if there were good deals on. There could even be a scenario whereby further price cuts on the 2000 series would see me jumping ship even if I didn't have to.

2700x launched at $329 and the 3700x launched at $329... it compares not just "ok" but identical to 2000 series launch pricing! In real terms a couple percent cheaper and more performance for the dollar... it was more in the UK due to exchange rate differences, but c'est la vie - can't blame AMD for our weakened currency and they aren't a charity. Dollar cost almost always determines other currency pricing for international companies/products. Back in april 2018 when the 2000 series launch the exchange rate was about 1.40 to the pound... in july 2019 it was 1.26!

That is an exchange rate difference of about 11% - 2700X seems to have launched in the UK at £299 vs the 3700x at £329... that's a cost difference of about 10%. Funny how that works! The good news is that it's already available for around 290 quid now.

The 2700X is now half the price because it's a previous generation, so unfair to judge the 3700x launch price by that metric. I guarantee a 3700x will be available for a very good price once the 4000 series launches too. So you could wait until then - just don't then complain that the 4700X should be launching at less than the 3700X...

It's just not realistic, even your "sell me a 3700x at £240"... the 2700x is just fantastic value at the current prices, and if anything that should make you happy. The launch of the 3000 series made that happen! You have to decide for yourself whether you want to chase the latest and greatest for the best performance, or get a much better performance to value ratio by staying a gen behind.

 

[FoxEye]

don't then complain that the 4700X should be launching at less than the 3700X...

He didn't; I didn't; nobody did.

Neither of us find the 3000 series appealing enough to buy.

Sure Intel are more expensive but I'm not contemplating buying them either.

HangTime and I have both simply decided not to spend our money because we want more.

You can say, "It's unfair to want more, AMD is not a charity!". Others can say, "If you don't buy AMD now you never will/ Intel shill, etc." That doesn't bother me, except to reinforce how daft these forums can be at times.

As consumers the only power we have is not to buy if we aren't happy with the offer. And that's a power I'm happy to exercise.

e: I hope that the 4000 series will offer more for the same price (launch price).

It will probably be more expensive tho, and I'm sure people will be falling over themselves to justify any price increase. "If you want new tech you have to pay for it." Etc, etc.

 

[Chrisc]

Thats what I said But 5700XT Reference doesn't use the same cooler nor makes the same noise. That was my point.

oh yeah i fully understand that, ive been eyeing up a reference 5700xt for a while, given the positive feedback.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

It's more likely to fail than if you didn't have a fan

But even if it doesn't fail completely, you've still got mechanical degradation. So the noise could get worse as the bearings get more worn.

The impact of this is somewhat lessened by the zero-RPM modes present on modern fan controllers. My mobo didn't have the last time I had a chipset fan. That was on all the time.

Agreed, but it still isn't the end of the world... it is almost certainly possible to replace the fan on most of them if you actually just try and find a close enough match, and if not then a low profile active chipset cooler also isn't hard to find.

Like I said, I agree with you that no fan is preferable to fan and I hope the X670 (or whatever they call them) go back to passive cooling, but I just think some people try to make a bigger problem of it than it really is.

Now I see you mentioned cost... yes, that's a compelling argument to not go X570! much more so than the fan issue in my opinion.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

He didn't; I didn't; nobody did.

Neither of us find the 3000 series appealing enough to buy.

Sure Intel are more expensive but I'm not contemplating buying them either.

HangTime and I have both simply decided not to spend our money because we want more.

You can say, "It's unfair to want more, AMD is not a charity!". Others can say, "If you don't buy AMD now you never will/ Intel shill, etc." That doesn't bother me, except to reinforce how daft these forums can be at times.

As consumers the only power we have is not to buy if we aren't happy with the offer. And that's a power I'm happy to exercise.

e: I hope that the 4000 series will offer more for the same price (launch price).

It will probably be more expensive tho, and I'm sure people will be falling over themselves to justify any price increase. "If you want new tech you have to pay for it." Etc, etc.

I wasn't even talking to you so not sure why you feel the need to say you didn't... I know you didn't, nor did I ever claim you did.

If you actually read what I wrote, I was posing a hypothetical - don't then complain... so I didn't say that he had done so either. I also didn't say it's unfair to want more - we all want more bang for the buck... What I actually did do was explain (along with the maths and data to back it up) why the UK price was higher than the 2700X launch price despite the fact that they actually launch at the same dollar price. You will note I said that what he asked for is unrealistic, not unfair. If you are going to take issue with what I said then please don't substitute your own words for mine as it undermines your argument.

Personally I don't have any skin in the game - if the 3000 series isn't a compelling purchase then don't purchase... simple. I don't see why you feel Intel/AMD lines or comparisons need to be drawn over what was a discussion about AMD vs AMD anyway either. I've never accused you of being an intel shill or even that you were saying intel is more compelling... in fact I never even mentioned intel at all! I honestly don't care what anyone buys, none of my business! Until this latest AMD purchase I've been intel for the previous years too... Buy (or don't buy) what you like and enjoy.

 

[jigger]

Agreed, but it still isn't the end of the world... it is almost certainly possible to replace the fan on most of them if you actually just try and find a close enough match, and if not then a low profile active chipset cooler also isn't hard to find.

Like I said, I agree with you that no fan is preferable to fan and I hope the X670 (or whatever they call them) go back to passive cooling, but I just think some people try to make a bigger problem of it than it really is.

Now I see you mentioned cost... yes, that's a compelling argument to not go X570! much more so than the fan issue in my opinion.

The cost of some X570 motherboards are overpriced, however X570 boards start at £120-130 and I think that is good value especially considering they are PCIE 4 based.

Looking at some of the higher end and you do get some added value. The MSI prestige for example come 1x gigabit and 1x10 gigabit NICs. That’s probably £200 of networking alone. Most of the higher end Asus boards come 2.5 gigabit NICs again £100 NIC included with those.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

Don't need to convince me, I recently bought an X570 Aorus master (albeit at a rather good chunk below mrsp!). I can see the argument that X570 doesn't necessarily offer a compelling proposition for most over x470 though given the cost disparity...

I'm very happy with it though, got 4 sticks of ram running 3600 CL14 and I doubt I could have managed that were it not for the better quality traces... plus as you say a few other value adds too.

 

[HangTime]

I guarantee a 3700x will be available for a very good price once the 4000 series launches too. So you could wait until then - just don't then complain that the 4700X should be launching at less than the 3700X...

It's just not realistic, even your "sell me a 3700x at £240"... the 2700x is just fantastic value at the current prices, and if anything that should make you happy. The launch of the 3000 series made that happen! You have to decide for yourself whether you want to chase the latest and greatest for the best performance, or get a much better performance to value ratio by staying a gen behind.

I've said in another post this is an option I am considering, but I'm always a bit wary because sometimes previous generations don't get proper price cuts, they just get phased out or left at high prices. Perhaps more so with Intel/NV than AMD - at one point I quite fancied a 8600K but they haven't come down properly in price.

Basically I'm in a position where I guess what I really want doesn't exist a 3700 (non-X). A 8c16t chip with lower clockspeeds priced in between the 3600X and 3700X. It's a pretty big gap right now, the next chip up in the range being over 50% more expensive. Whereas there was a 2700 (non-X).

 

[FoxEye]

The cost of some X570 motherboards are overpriced, however X570 boards start at £120-130 and I think that is good value especially considering they are PCIE 4 based.

Looking at some of the higher end and you do get some added value. The MSI prestige for example come 1x gigabit and 1x10 gigabit NICs. That’s probably £200 of networking alone. Most of the higher end Asus boards come 2.5 gigabit NICs again £100 NIC included with those.

Not sure where you're buying at those prices.

You can get a full PCIE card, single 10gig NIC for $80 and dual 10-gig for $140.

And that's a full expansion card.

Ultimately tho it's what you want to pay that matters. If you see added value in a £400 motherboard, then by all means go buy it.

My idea of value isn't the same as yours.

 

[jigger]

Not sure where you're buying at those prices.

You can get a full PCIE card, single 10gig NIC for $80 and dual 10-gig for $140.

And that's a full expansion card.

Ultimately tho it's what you want to pay that matters. If you see added value in a £400 motherboard, then by all means go buy it.

My idea of value isn't the same as yours.

Not retail you can’t. You must be talking about Chinese knock off Intel cards. Some actually work apparently.

For reference a Intel T2 starts at around £220 and gets towards £550 depending on the version. You can pickup a QNAP single 10Gb for around £130 and occasionally Asus 10Gb cards for around £100.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

I've said in another post this is an option I am considering, but I'm always a bit wary because sometimes previous generations don't get proper price cuts, they just get phased out or left at high prices. Perhaps more so with Intel/NV than AMD - at one point I quite fancied a 8600K but they haven't come down properly in price.

Basically I'm in a position where I guess what I really want doesn't exist a 3700 (non-X). A 8c16t chip with lower clockspeeds priced in between the 3600X and 3700X. It's a pretty big gap right now, the next chip up in the range being over 50% more expensive. Whereas there was a 2700 (non-X).

The 3700X is getting closer, already down to 290 at most places - It may fill that gap itself soon (we can hope!)... but yeah you are right, there is quite a gap at the moment.

My personal thought regarding pricing of outgoing gens is that the historical failure of significant price drops is related to socket compatibility... If someone wants to max out their eg Z270 platform then they can only go to a 7000 series chip. That means that there will be higher demand for those chips even once superseded, as it's still a lot cheaper than buying a new motherboard too.

We didn't really see that with recent Ryzen due to the fact that even someone on a b350 can (generally speaking) drop in a 3600 for example, which makes the older chips a harder sell unless the price is right... hence those seriously tempting prices we are seeing.

So my personal guess - 3000 series will be similar to the 2000 series now, but 4000 series is more likely to carry a higher price once superseded due to the fact there will be a market for people wanting to max their existing socket and avoid the cost of a move to AM5, new mobo, ddr5 etc.

 

[FoxEye]

@jigger
No I was looking on Amazon.com and suchlike.

But even using your prices a 10Gb + 1Gb card is like £115. Far from the £200 you first claimed. 1gig cards are cheap as chips.

 

[jigger]

@jigger
No I was looking on Amazon.com and suchlike.

But even using your prices a 10Gb + 1Gb card is like £115. Far from the £200 you first claimed. 1gig cards are cheap as chips.

Occasionally you get deals. Some places even sell at a loss to clear stock and get customers in the door but that is irrelevant when it comes costing and building a product. Amazon sellers offer fakes, those cards have even found a way into the supply chains. I’ve come across them myself.

Are you now arguing motherboard makes should buy knock off chipset from the Chinese black market LOL.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Aquantia based 10Gb cards are £100 all day long, i think most of the X570 boards also use Aquantia chipsets not the much more expensive Intel?

 

[FoxEye]

Are you now arguing motherboard makes should buy knock off chipset from the Chinese black market LOL.

Not sure what the LOL is for. Is that a question or are you saying that's my position? I can't quite work it out.

Did I say anything about so-called "Chinese knock-offs"? Or was that you?

How many of the X570 motherboards use Intel NICs, btw? You seem to think that only Intel NICs are the real deal, and that everything else is a "Chinese knock off"?

Curious.

 

[jigger]

Aquantia based 10Gb cards are £100 all day long, i think most of the X570 boards also use Aquantia chipsets not the much more expensive Intel?

Yeah most seem to use the Aquantia chipset. They have gained a lot of traction undercutting Intel. The Asus cards come up for around that, but they are usually out of stock. £130-£150 usually gets one.

As for cheaper that’s generally the case because Intel are expensive, but it’s depends on the chipset. Aquantia NIC’s can also get pricey.

When I bought the board in my sig that was £290 but the 5 gigabit NIC alone made it worth that. It can actually sustain close to 8 gigabit a sec which is nice.

 

[Firestar_3x]

Went 10Gb this year all new bar the AT2, Asus XG-C100C for £97 and a second for £78, Aquantia AQN-108 £65, Intel X550-T2 £160 and Intel AT2 £69.

In stock Asus cards atm for £98.

Hopefully prices start coming down, the real issue is buying a switch got an open box 10 port D-Link for £360 after discount code!

 

[almoststew1990]

I would be tempted to swap a 3700x for say a 20% faster but also cooler and lower volts 4700x. Sell on my 3700x a few weeks in advance for a slightly elevated price and make do with the dual core I used to flash my BIOS.