AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It wasn't people assuming support, it explicitly MARKETED future support.

They told a system integrator as far back as April,the B450 would work with a microcode update. It's been posted enough times here - the system integrator had to find out via the AMD official release,the same day we all did!

I suspect this decision is not so much pushed by AMD but by the motherboard vendours. AMD may loose out on the odd percent of 4000 sales but the motherboard makers will shift way more units and also save themselves some major headaches in the process with having to update older boards.

I had one of the original B450 Tomahawks and remember all too well the hassle and complaints they had trying to get what was probably the most popular B450 board to work with Ryzen 3000. I personally had no problem whatsoever, just did the flashback but many people didn't have my experience.

Probably the only thing AMD can to do now is ride rough shod through the cognitive dissonance caused by the gap between reality and the expectations of the majority of its patrons owning B450 x470 etc boards.

You had AMD making charts like the following:





It's not only DIY buyers but apparently even system integrators - just look at my previous post. Also AMD posts on social media,so for 12 months they have senior AMD marketing people post in the AMD reddit,seeing people post Zen3 should work on B450/X470. They said nothing. AMD even went on social media several times,to debunk rumours.

Plus if there was really problems with the B450/X470,they should have made a compatible version,ie,maybe call it the B450X or even launch a range of B550A motherboards(they did for OEM and these were B450 motherboards which had PCI-E 4.0),so there would be no confusion. They did nothing,and many OEMs released new B450 motherboards specifically for Zen2,just before or after launch. Those OEMs would have loved that too.

The same goes with the BIOS chip size. They design the reference platform,so it's their fault for not specifying a minimum size BIOS chip. OEMs,will base their own motherboards around the AMD reference design specifications.

So having looked over the specs for my x570 Tachi is would appear that I have a 32MB bios. Who is responsible for that? Is that Asrock or Amd?

ASRock I believe as many X570 motherboards use 16MB BIOS chips,like a number of B450 motherboards. My Asus B450 uses a 32MB BIOS chip too.

If AMD specified bigger BIOS chips,ALL AM4 motherboards would have. Seems the AMD specifications must be 8MB or 16MB BIOS chips.

I can even understand if this was for B350 or X370 but surely for second generation chipsets they could have specified bigger BIOS chips.

 

[Martini1991]

In comments AMD specified "Through 2020" as well.

AM5's likely coming next year isn't it? So anything bought this year is short lived anyway (Which in itself isn't an issue, although sympathy for B550 buyers).

 

[opethdisciple]

But as AM5 is meant to come with DDR5 and PCI-E 5 if those specifications aren't ready for next year then plans for AM5 could change.

At the moment it seems AMD are being vague if Zen 3 is the last AM4 CPU.

 

[Troezar]

I look at it like this. My X570 will be superceded soon but it won't get any slower. Other faster platforms will come out but I don't expect the maxed out potential of my system to hold me back for a long time. Graphics cards are another matter entirely but as long as I have enough power to keep feeding them in not going to see much difference.

 

[LePhuronn]

It wasn't people assuming support, it explicitly MARKETED future support.

Those 2 boards for sure, which is going to be very interesting going forward. But by the same token, MSI are not responsible for the implementation of other vendors. This is the problem, the AM4-equipped motherboard ecosystem as a whole is horribly fragmented because of design decisions over the past 4 years, and AMD have a massive **** pile to clean up because of it.

 

[Martini1991]

But as AM5 is meant to come with DDR5 and PCI-E 5 if those specifications aren't ready for next year then plans for AM5 could change.

At the moment it seems AMD are being vague if Zen 3 is the last AM4 CPU.

I don't understand how PCI-E 5 is coming.
PCI-E 4 isn't really here (I'm currently using it now I got rid of my PCI-E sound card)

 

[LePhuronn]

I think the PCIe 5 thing came about because there was a rumour that Intel were leapfrogging Gen 4 because they're late to the party. Combined with AM5 and DDR5, throwing PCIe 5 in was a nice tidy collection of numbers.

I don't recall where I read it, but PCIe 5 is unlikely to happen, but DDR5 is, largely in part to the APUs benefiting from the increased bandwidth (especially the monster ones coming).

 

[Journey]

I don't understand how PCI-E 5 is coming.

It's being actively developed into products due for release at the end of this year.

 

[Martini1991]

It's being actively developed into products due for release at the end of this year.

So, what was the point of PCI-E 4?
Been out a single year, single chipset support, single series of GPU's, few SSD's.

Intel right now are on PCI-E 3?

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But as AM5 is meant to come with DDR5 and PCI-E 5 if those specifications aren't ready for next year then plans for AM5 could change.

At the moment it seems AMD are being vague if Zen 3 is the last AM4 CPU.

They are always vague,and that is the problem here. If they had been forthright in saying things,and clearing up any confusion last year,this situation wouldn't be happening today.

In comments AMD specified "Through 2020" as well.

AM5's likely coming next year isn't it? So anything bought this year is short lived anyway (Which in itself isn't an issue, although sympathy for B550 buyers).

2022 IIRC,so B550 looks also to have a relatively short lifespan,unless AMD do a whole DDR4/DDR5 memory controller.

 

[Doobedoo]

ASRock I believe as many X570 motherboards use 16MB BIOS chips,like a number of B450 motherboards. My Asus B450 uses a 32MB BIOS chip too.

If AMD specified bigger BIOS chips,ALL AM4 motherboards would have. Seems the AMD specifications must be 8MB or 16MB BIOS chips.

I can even understand if this was for B350 or X370 but surely for second generation chipsets they could have specified bigger BIOS chips.

I think people should calm down a little bit. It looks like the "blame" could fall in multiple directions. Motherboard manufacturers, Amd and also the consumer.

We now know it's an issue so let's put the pitchforks down and see how Amd and Motherboard vendors react from this moment forward. Any boards with limited bios space should be named and shamed that then leaves the consumer with the choice of buying cheap with the intention of only one or two cpu gens, or stump up a little more if that is even the case and buy something that will be suitable for multiple gens, if that is also what you want.

Me personally am not bothered although I see why some might be. Those that brought the cheapest b450's for £90 or whatever...Tough luck, learn from it.

 

[LePhuronn]

Right now I'm more concerned with getting an old Asrock H67 board updated to support Ivy Bridge

 

[Doobedoo]

I'm more concerned with finding a decent Gpu upgrade for a reasonable price. First world problems and all that .

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think people should calm down a little bit. It looks like the "blame" could fall in multiple directions. Motherboard manufacturers, Amd and also the consumer.

We now know it's an issue so let's put the pitchforks down and see how Amd and Motherboard vendors react from this moment forward. Any boards with limited bios space should be named and shamed that then leaves the consumer with the choice of buying cheap with the intention of only one or two cpu gens, or stump up a little more if that is even the case and buy something that will be suitable for multiple gens, if that is also what you want.

Me personally am not bothered although I see why some might be. Those that brought the cheapest b450's for £90 or whatever...Tough luck, learn from it.

The fact is £90 is a mainstream motherboard price,only cheap if you buy £200+ motherboards especially if you are spending £200 on a CPU. What's the point of spending £200 on a motherboard and £200 on an AMD CPU,when you could get a £100 motherboard and a £300 Intel CPU and known what is happening?? Also,again the reference platform is designed by AMD,so if AMD says you only need 16MB BIOS chips,then AMD can't really have a go at them either,as they are following what AMD told them was fine. The problem is we even had this back in the AM2/AM3 days when certain AMD motherboards would burn their VRMs out,ie,AMD wasn't stringent enough with minimum standards. In that sense Intel seems a bit better.

AMD did nothing about releasing a B550 for 12 months,and that is 100% on AMD. AMD technical and non-technical marketing frequently posts on Reddit,etc and they saw people talking about B450 compatibility,and said nothing to clarify stuff. But then the problem here is they even told system integrators B450 would work.



So that is though official channels. So if system integrators are finding out the same day as us,they WTF are AMD doing?? System integrators are getting the same mixed signals as us. I don't blame the consumer at all,because AMD are being vague to system integrators too,and these companies need to know these things,otherwise they will lose money.

This is the same level of stuff,during their graphics card launches. The 5600XT where AMD was vague,and by the time OEMs found out they needed the faster BIOS,they hadn't had time to actually make sure they worked.

So it doubled the work for many OEMs,as they had to re-release V2 versions of the 5600XT.

People say OEMs might have forced this,but OEMs also made second generation B450/X470 motherboards for Zen2 and I actually expect they were told by AMD Zen3 would work,if Schenker was told the same. This is why MSI told people their MAX motherboards would work with all AM4 releases.

AMD needs to stop being vague,and basically just communicate with everyone better. This would have solved any of these problems last year. I hope they understand this now.

If they are moving from the underdog status to the premier status,then their marketing should "level up" as Boris says.

 

[opethdisciple]

Says here 2022 for DDR5. So if AMD stick with releasing Zen 4 with this could be an indication it isn't coming sooner than 2022.

"AMD will be utilising its Zen 4 microarchitecture which is expected to be officially announced in 2021 with an aim for availability come 2022"

 

[Doobedoo]

Well I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree. Bigger problems in the world. But by all means keep up the good fight someone has too.

I guess I have got to the point where nothing surprises me anymore.... Especially when it comes to money mattters.

 

[Journey]

So, what was the point of PCI-E 4?
Been out a single year, single chipset support, single series of GPU's, few SSD's.

Intel right now are on PCI-E 3?

PCI-E 4.0 was later than Intel delivering 10nm, hence the proximity to the release of the finalised specification for 5.0. 5.0 uses the technology developed for 4.0 and improves on it, but there are significant similarities between them both.

Lets not forget PCI-E 5.0 is not just for device connectivity but the PHY is being used in CXL as well, and the likes of Intel, Google, Microsoft, IBM, etc. are trying to get this pushed out as quickly as possible.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Well I guess some of us will have to agree to disagree. Bigger problems in the world. But by all means keep up the good fight someone has too.

I guess I have got to the point where nothing surprises me anymore.... Especially when it comes to money mattters.

As I said if they are moving from the underdog status to the premier status,their marketing also has to "level up". Like I said the RX5600XT launch was the same kind of problem too. They just need to clarify things early and then people and OEMs know where they stand. Also,the thing is Intel get's a lot of flack for it's socket changes,but I always found over the last 15 years,AMD never quite get the same criticisms for doing similar things,and as Martini said it's not the first time either.Maybe because they are the "good guys" and get a pass.

I just feel as you said it's all about the money,so you are correct!

 

[Doobedoo]

As I said if they are moving from the underdog status to the premier status,they marketing als has to "level up". Like I said the RX5600XT launch was the same kind of problem too. They just need to clarify things early and then people and OEMs know where they stand.

Yep can't argue with that. So now we know, well kind of. What happens from here we will have to wait and see. Perhaps someone should make a name and shame /motherboard compatibility thread on this forum. Get it stickied and continuously link it in any cpu related thread.

Let's take it out the hands of Amd/Motherboard makers until it has been clarified to a sufficient level. They do after all want to make as much money from each person as they possibly can. Forget the intentions of Amd/Intel management or marketing team, they ultimately are all ruled by the same kind of person. The investors/shareholders who by definition want the biggest return for their money.

 

[gavinh87]

So having looked over the specs for my x570 Tachi it would appear that I have a 32MB bios. Who is responsible for that? Is that Asrock or Amd?

Should have known Gavin would pop up . Longtime Gavin you ok?

All good, you?
Rocking a 3700x and all was well till I saw AMD pull an Intel lol