I think you're being hugely optimistic if you think an 8C/8T will be $300.
An Intel 4C/4T is £250. A 4C/8T Intel is £339. People are still buying them.
Is AMD really going to undercut these prices with a better performing CPU?
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*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***
- Thread starter Boomstick777
- Start date
I think you're being hugely optimistic if you think an 8C/8T will be $300.
An Intel 4C/4T is £250. A 4C/8T Intel is £339. People are still buying them.
Is AMD really going to undercut these prices with a better performing CPU?
Caporegime
If AMD has a 8C/8T CPU with BW-E level IPC and reasonable clockspeeds I expect it will be at least £350.
I also suspect that a 4C/8T SKU will be Intel 4C level pricing.
I also suspect that a 4C/8T SKU will be Intel 4C level pricing.
That was their MO historically speaking, and they probably don't want to repeat recent failures.
Soldato
Isnt the total price really including motherboard if we are comparing brands
Caporegime
Intel 6800K is $400
$350+ for the 8c 8t... not happening if they want to sell some.
$350+ for the 8c 8t... not happening if they want to sell some.
Intel have pushed pricing up due to AMD not being in the market. Now AMD could be coming back, they would be in a good position to push it back to where is should have been. I think most people are too used to paying Intel's prices and forgot where the market should be.
It really wouldn't shock me if an AMD 8C8T comes in at Intel's 4C8T pricing. (If there is an 8C8T in the line up)
It really wouldn't shock me if an AMD 8C8T comes in at Intel's 4C8T pricing. (If there is an 8C8T in the line up)
Caporegime
OFC they will,the 4C/8T Intel CPUs are £350. The Core i7 6800K is £410.
£350 for an 8C/8T Ryzen with BW-E level IPC will be fine at that price.
Once you add the cheaper platform costs and a half decent included cooler,it will make the Core i7 6800K look worse in comparison especially if AMD is aggressive on Turbo in lightly threaded scenarios.
An 8C/8T Ryzen with BW-E level IPC will utterly destroy a Core i7 6700K/Core i7 7700K in anything which needs more threads.
In lightly threaded software if they can get around 4GHZ Turbo working,it won't be massively slower.
This is where I see the Ryzen models priced at:
1.)8C/16T Ryzen will be more than £400
2.)8C/8T Ryzen will be priced between 4C/8T K series KL and 6C/12T BW-E so around £350
3.)4C/8T Ryzen will be priced around 4C K series KL so around £230 to £250
4.)4C/4T Ryzen will be priced around 2C/4T K series KL so around £175
The Ryzen SKUs will be unlocked and will have the Wraith air cooler installed.
If AMD Ryzen is BW-E level performance and the CPUs can hit 4GHZ Turbo,at each tier they are offering more cores or threads,a decent stock cooler and a chance to upgrade to HEDT level CPUs on a consumer platform.
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Caporegime
I have a 4690K, cost me £200.
£350 is too much for an upgrade, thats a couple of tiers outside my budget.
So what do AMD have to tempt me to ditch the 4690K and go over to their side?
Edit: just adding SMT for £250 isn't going to make me switchout my platform, its not worth it, not even close, its cheaper if I do that through Intel with my existing platform.
£350 is too much for an upgrade, thats a couple of tiers outside my budget.
So what do AMD have to tempt me to ditch the 4690K and go over to their side?
Edit: just adding SMT for £250 isn't going to make me switchout my platform, its not worth it, not even close, its cheaper if I do that through Intel with my existing platform.
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Caporegime
Brexit means the pound is weaker so you will be paying more for a direct replacement.
What does Intel have for you?? A Core i5 7600K which costs £240 with no cooler.
A Ryzen 4C/8T will be £100 cheaper than a Core i7 7700K,have a half-decent cooler included out of the box and will be on a platform which can take 8C/16T CPUs.
My mate paid £300 for a Core i7 6700 last year and like most people I know who want to buy a Core i7,its around £300 to £350.
Expecting a 6C/12T or 8C/8T CPU for £200 is wishful thinking. It will only happen if Ryzen has SB level IPC or worse.
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2c/4t will almost certainly be reserved for Raven Ridge. The same might be true for 4c/4t, depends if they think they can position such a chip without an IGP in the market.
Caporegime
I really think people expecting AMD to massive underprice their CPUs,especially if they can get to around BW-E level and with competitive clockspeeds,are going to be massively dissapointed.
It MIGHT happen,but I would not bet on it TBF!!
Look at the Phenom II X4 at launch - it was quite close to many Core2 quad SKUs in performance,but was not massively cheaper. The same with the Phenom II X6 SKUs,which at the top end were quite close to the consumer quad core Core i7 SKUs,and the lower end SKUs tracked Core i5 prices.
However,AMD had a better stock cooler and the motherboards tended to have features like SATA3.0 and XFire at a lower price than the Intel ones,so overall,especially during the Core2 quad days,it looked a better bet.
Once you add the fact Intel has locked overclocking out of many SKUs,and even dropped the stock cooler and made the one they include with other SKUs smaller and smaller,I can see AMD doing some of what they did during the Phenom II era to show they have extra "added value" over what the competition has.
So even my pricing is kind of optimistic at some levels,but any lower and I would be seriously worried performance might not be that great.
If AMD price it way too low,it also leads to a big problem with their Raven Ridge SKUs this year especially if they cut down on L3 cache,etc. They would be stuck in a very low price range for the APUs.
I would love a BW-E level 8C CPU for £200,but I would be shocked if AMD released one at the Ryzen launch.
It MIGHT happen,but I would not bet on it TBF!!
Look at the Phenom II X4 at launch - it was quite close to many Core2 quad SKUs in performance,but was not massively cheaper. The same with the Phenom II X6 SKUs,which at the top end were quite close to the consumer quad core Core i7 SKUs,and the lower end SKUs tracked Core i5 prices.
However,AMD had a better stock cooler and the motherboards tended to have features like SATA3.0 and XFire at a lower price than the Intel ones,so overall,especially during the Core2 quad days,it looked a better bet.
Once you add the fact Intel has locked overclocking out of many SKUs,and even dropped the stock cooler and made the one they include with other SKUs smaller and smaller,I can see AMD doing some of what they did during the Phenom II era to show they have extra "added value" over what the competition has.
So even my pricing is kind of optimistic at some levels,but any lower and I would be seriously worried performance might not be that great.
If AMD price it way too low,it also leads to a big problem with their Raven Ridge SKUs this year especially if they cut down on L3 cache,etc. They would be stuck in a very low price range for the APUs.
I would love a BW-E level 8C CPU for £200,but I would be shocked if AMD released one at the Ryzen launch.
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Caporegime
Nothing to do with Brexit, don't even bring that into it.
I can sell the 4690K for £120 right now and get new i7 4790K for another £230.
To do the same swapping a 4 core 8 thread on AMD side taking your prices in to account would cost me £250 for the CPU, £120 for the Board and £80 for the DDR4 RAM, £200 more and I would only get about £90 back for my Z97 and DDR3.
So just to swap to an AMD 4 core + SMT would cost me £100 more than going the Intel rout.
Besides all of that I would not reach into my pocket for £200 just to get SMT.
This is the problem AMD would have with pricing like that they ain't going to win any previous platform Intel users over, few Sandy Bridge and Fewer Ivy Bridge, their main custom would come from existing Piledriver and Bulldozer owners, of which there are not many.
For Zen to be a success it needs to win Intel users over, with prices that are token cheaper than Intel they can't achieving that.
Edit: add £75 to replace this going AM4
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Caporegime
I have PCIe 3, USB 3, SATA Express, M.2.... its not obsolete. ^^^^^
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<£250, they ain't selling at £350+ because Intel have their 6 core 12 thread CPU for just £50 more.
Frankly for more than £250 i'll go used 4790K and if you were to ask any 4690K or 6600K owners I suspect the majority of them would say the same.
AMD have to be truly disruptive with their pricing strategy or they are not going to break any new ground, I think AMD know this and they need to break new ground so I think they will cost less than the token reductions suggested here, I think they will be radical.
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<£250, they ain't selling at £350+ because Intel have their 6 core 12 thread CPU for just £50 more.
Frankly for more than £250 i'll go used 4790K and if you were to ask any 4690K or 6600K owners I suspect the majority of them would say the same.
AMD have to be truly disruptive with their pricing strategy or they are not going to break any new ground, I think AMD know this and they need to break new ground so I think they will cost less than the token reductions suggested here, I think they will be radical.
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Caporegime
Its not relevant what you paid for a CPU years ago when the pound was $1.5ish - its $1.25ish now,so a direct replacement will cost more.
The Core i5 4670K and Core i5 7600K is a $242 SKU,so expecting AMD to pay for currency fluctuations is hilarious.
AMD is only going to care about what Intel has out now,and as the Phenom II indicated they didn't massively undercut Intel and AMD still sold enough of them since the Core2 quads were not really significantly better.
Look at Piledriver - AMD pricing was not massively lower. 6C/6T FX6300 against a 2C/4T Core i3,and the 8C/8T FX8300 series against the 4C and 4C/8T Intel Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs.
When AMD had the Athlon XP and Athlon 64,pricing was not massively lower for many SKUs when compared to Intel.
AMD has far less of an image problem with CPUs than with graphics cards,and the only reason they have had to price them cheaply is since they lacked performance.
If they have enough performance they will price them higher otherwise it defeats the point of them making Ryzen.
Intel is selling plenty of Core i5 7600K and Core i7 7700K CPUs at the current RRPs worldwide just like the previous Core i5 6600K and Core i7 6700K.
8C/8T Ryzen at £300 to £350 will be 8C/8T against 4C/8T for the same price and the reviews will show that.
In the end,if AMD offers BW-E level IPC,can can get Turbo upto 4GHZ for £240 to £250,it will still be £100 cheaper than a Core i7 7700K unfortunately for you.
I would be quite happy to replace my Xeon E3 1230 V2 for that price,on a new platform and without needing to splurge on a new cooler.
If they are going to price it a bit cheaper I would be happy,but people need to be realistic - remember what happened with the RX480 for example??
AMD has started to realise,Intel and Nvidia have stood firm on pricing and its helped them out- in the end people who don't want an AMD CPU won't buy one even if Ryzen was half the price and double the performance. People still bought P4 CPUs even when AMD was just better in most metrics.
Edit!!
Plus in the end if you are already on an older platform its just cheaper to upgrade your CPU anyway. AMD and Intel cannot compete with secondhand CPUs,but the people who are more likely to buy secondhand are not really relevant to Intel and AMD TBH.
I would probably source a Core i7 4790K from a secondhand parts retailer.
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Caporegime
Cat I didn't buy it years ago, i told you what i paid for it, it was £200. the whole platform is less than a year old.
Edit: I just looked all together it was £370 with Board and 16GB DDR3, Excluding the KRAKEN X31 which I already had. that was £65 when I got it 2 years ago.
Edit: I just looked all together it was £370 with Board and 16GB DDR3, Excluding the KRAKEN X31 which I already had. that was £65 when I got it 2 years ago.
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Caporegime
If its that new,then I personally would not bother - the main issue with my current system,is once the motherboard goes I am screwed as it is a mini-ITX system and AMD has tended to have a better CPU compatibility over multiple platforms in the past.
The thing is the cheapest upgrade would be a secondhand Core i7 4790K or Xeon E3 for your system.
TBH,I would love if AMD sold us a BW-E level IPC 8C/8T CPU for £250 with decent stock clockspeeds or a 4C/8T one for £150,but I really doubt it.
Part of the issue is they very well know that people are paying retail prices for the Core i5 and Core i7 SKUs,so even AMD undercutting or merely adding HT to a SKU,is enough to kind of make the current Intel product segmentation look wonky.
I mean an 8C/8T or 6C/12T CPU at £300 to £350 would alone make a 4C/8T Core i7 7700K looked even more overpriced than it is. A 4C/8T CPU at Intel 4C prices would make the 4C CPU looked overpriced and an unlocked 4C SKU at Core i3 K series prices would make the Core i3 CPUs look even more overpriced.
Intel shutting off overclocking on most parts as standard,making worse and worse stock coolers and not even including them on certain models,then segmenting 6C and 8C CPUs into another socket,switching off software features on SKUs,etc has just given AMD the chance to not really move that much to make most of the line-up look wonky.
FFS,the most interesting CPU Intel has released in a few years is the Pentium G4560 and only because it is the first Core based CPU Intel has had under £80 with 4 threads.
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Caporegime
£250 for their 8c 8t is twice as much as their current 8c 8t, they don't need to go 3 times with their pricing to turn healthy profits.
We are too used to Intel's CPU pricing strategy, we have lost all sense of reality, I can buy a brand new 4K TV for £350, 55" one for £430... In a Brexit climate
AMD can easily sell the cut down 8 Core chips for £250 and make a lot more money than they ever did with Piledriver or Bulldozer, probably Deneb and Phenom too.
Because Intel have moved their prices so high AMD have an opportunity to entice loyal Intel users over with pricing, if AMD don't give Intel users a reason to switch platforms they ain't going to, so AMD don't gain any new customers.
If they don't gain any new customers, they don't really have any.
@ £250 for an AMD 4 core with SMT they are giving me and a huge market base 'less' reason to go that rout than we / they would going Intel 4 core + SMT 'Brand New CPU'
Very few would spend £200 just to turn their 4 core into one with SMT anyway.
We are too used to Intel's CPU pricing strategy, we have lost all sense of reality, I can buy a brand new 4K TV for £350, 55" one for £430... In a Brexit climate
AMD can easily sell the cut down 8 Core chips for £250 and make a lot more money than they ever did with Piledriver or Bulldozer, probably Deneb and Phenom too.
Because Intel have moved their prices so high AMD have an opportunity to entice loyal Intel users over with pricing, if AMD don't give Intel users a reason to switch platforms they ain't going to, so AMD don't gain any new customers.
If they don't gain any new customers, they don't really have any.
@ £250 for an AMD 4 core with SMT they are giving me and a huge market base 'less' reason to go that rout than we / they would going Intel 4 core + SMT 'Brand New CPU'
Very few would spend £200 just to turn their 4 core into one with SMT anyway.
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Soldato
Personally I'm not sweating it. The build I'm planning is an all-AMD 4K gaming PC, so that's always going to be GPU-limited. They're going to offer at least one Ryzen with eye-popping bang/buck surely.