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*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

AndreiD said:
@CAT-THE-FIFTH I'm not even denying that Ryzen is efficient, I'm just weary of AMD's marketing numbers which I think is healthy skepticism given how off their marketing can be at times.

Notebook check has a pretty balanced article where they compare AMD's sliders with various results from their database: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-Mobile-Raven-Ridge-Back-to-the-top.260136.0.html

It's healthy to be skeptical of marketing numbers coming from any company.
Click to expand...

That's testing a 15watt APU equipped note book against a very expensive laptop with much higher power requirements.

The APU you're so drsperate to to discredit is also performing within a margin of error from the Intel chip. If you give AMD's APU another watt or two it would probably beat the Intel chip.

CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
It looks solid - my main concern is that AMD make sure the laptops,at least ship with the option of having dual channel RAM. That is the area which can potentially become a problem in regards to IGP performance. I think some arguments could be made for chassis with sufficient cooling too,but TBH,that also affects Intel too.
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Yeah maybe AMD should insist on a minimum hardware specification.
 
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AndreiD said:
@CAT-THE-FIFTH I'm not even denying that Ryzen is efficient, I'm just weary of AMD's marketing numbers which I think is healthy skepticism given how off their marketing can be at times.

Notebook check has a pretty balanced article where they compare AMD's sliders with various results from their database: https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-Mobile-Raven-Ridge-Back-to-the-top.260136.0.html

It's healthy to be skeptical of marketing numbers coming from any company.
Click to expand...

Have you even looked at the models they tested against - they tested against models with dGPUs and one of them is an Asus ROG laptop with a 35W ~ 45W TDP Core i7 7700HQ and a GTX1080. The laptops which beat it in GPU performance,had dGPUs,and they did kind of compare effiency against an Intel CPU:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/7/1/csm_ryzen_apu_pres_40_0eb096a05f.jpg

Also,look at AMD's numbers for Ryzen before launch. They exceeded their published figures. Look at their figures for Raven Ridge before launch,its the same.

Every bit of evidence in 6+ months of testing has shown AMD to competitive in performance/watt in the CPU side,especially in lower clocked SKUs.

Also sure Intel will lead in CPU gaming performance,but again if you are stuck with an IGP or not a top level dGPU I doubt it will mean much.

IGP performance will be more dependent on what type of RAM ships with the systems and whether it can be run in dual channel.Also another consideration would be thermal dissipation of the chassis. But guess what?? It affects Intel systems too,hence why you get variablity in results. Also don't bring BR into it since it was an out date of uarch on an out of date node shoehorned into a lower TDP. Even the desktop 28NM APUs still lost out in CPU effiency by a large margin. We don't see this with Ryzen,so for me them being competitive at least on the CPU side its not surprising.

Edit!!

Mobile Ryzen APUs will launch in three devices (for the holiday season). The HP Envy X360 with Ryzen 5 2500U (and dual-channel RAM, contrary to leaks), the Lenovo IdeaPad 720S as a very slim system with Ryzen 5 2500U or Ryzen 7 2700U (but only single-channel DDR4-2133), and the Acer Swift 3. More laptops and APUs with higher TDP classifications (desktop?) will follow in 2018.
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The Intel version is also single channel:

http://laptopsuggest.com/reviews/acer-swift-3-sf314-51-52w2-review

The Acer SF314-51-52W2 also comes with 8 gigabytes of DDR4 RAM installed. This amount is not to be upgraded by the user, as the RAM is soldered to the motherboard. One minor drawback is the fact that all that memory comes as single channel.
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The Intel version of the Lenovo is also single channel.
 
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Did you buy AMD stock or something? That graph you linked is probably the most egregious example of how awful AMD's marketing is.
And there were plenty of issues with the Ryzen launch benches as pointed out in the initial GamersNexus article which blasted AMD for their misleading marketing.
 
AndreiD said:
Did you buy AMD stock or something? That graph you linked is probably the most egregious example of how awful AMD's marketing is.
And there were plenty of issues with the Ryzen launch benches as pointed out in the initial GamersNexus article which blasted AMD for their misleading marketing.
Click to expand...

So now the personal attacks - so did you buy stock in Intel then since you seem to be trying your best to bury this launch in the most negative way.

Edit!!

I see what you are trying to do - thread thrash this thread so people reading the last page or two don't seem to see the launch info. So I will make sure its relinked here,so people can read it.
 
How is that even a personal attack? All I'm implying is that it takes a certain kind of person to have this blind trust and faith in the marketing of a multi billion $, publicly traded corporation.
Going based on tangents and different SKU performance isn't prudent, and it's always best to wait for 3rd party reviews, or is that too outlandish and instead we should be trusting marketing from a corporation with a pretty bad track record in that regard?

Again, I'm not even trying to bury this launch in any way, all I'm saying is prudence until we see 3rd party reviews, or is the Vega launch cycle and the whole marketing mess that was already forgotten?

Edit: And since @CAT-THE-FIFTH is going all conspiracy theory, here's articles with Ryzen Mobile launch info for anyone coming into this thread:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1196...md-apus-for-laptops-with-vega-and-updated-zen
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-Mobile-Raven-Ridge-Back-to-the-top.260136.0.html
http://techreport.com/review/32743/amd-ryzen-7-2700u-and-ryzen-5-2500u-apus-revealed
https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Proce...-Graphics-Launch-Ryzen-and-Vega-hit-notebooks
https://www.techpowerup.com/238193/amd-introduces-new-ryzen-mobile-processors
https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/8390/amd-launches-mobile-ryzen-radeon-vega-graphics/index.html
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/tech/cpus/amd-launches-mobile-ryzen-chips-with-onboard-vega-graphics/1/
 
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AndreiD said:
How is that even a personal attack? All I'm implying is that it takes a certain kind of person to have this blind trust and faith in the marketing of a multi billion $, publicly traded corporation.
Going based on tangents and different SKU performance isn't prudent, and it's always best to wait for 3rd party reviews, or is that too outlandish and instead we should be trusting marketing from a corporation with a pretty bad track record in that regard?

Again, I'm not even trying to bury this launch in any way, all I'm saying is prudence until we see 3rd party reviews, or is the Vega launch cycle and the whole marketing mess that was already forgotten?
Click to expand...

Seems like AMD can match Intel's highest end chip at 1/3 of the power and hammer them in graphics performance. We try and talk about this and you feel the need to say CAT must have some kind of agenda and imply people are twisting this as some kind of marketing exercise for looking at the infomation as it's presented. Hence personal attack.

Can AMD punch above their weight on the CPU and GPU front? If this is the case AMD are long way ahead.
 
jigger said:
Seems like AMD can match Intel's highest end chip at 1/3 of the power and hammer them in graphics performance. We try and talk about this and you feel the need to say CAT must have some kind of agenda and imply people are twisting this as some kind of marketing exercise for looking at the infomation as it's presented. Hence personal attack.

Can AMD punch above their weight on the CPU and GPU front? If this is the case AMD are long way ahead.
Click to expand...

What I would also like to know is the models with single channel perform in relation to the Intel ones with single channel too. As noted earlier,two of the models mentioned ship in single channel configs for BOTH Intel and AMD. Its where in the past Intel was relatively less hobbled by a drop in bandwidth than AMD IIRC(could be wrong).

One interesting metric is this:

https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/1486/bench/Memory.png

Look at the BR memory controller against the Ryzen and KL ones. Dual channel 2400MHZ DDR4 produces less bandwidth than a modern Intel or AMD CPU in single channel(even if you scale the clockspeed down) and this is why IGP performance crashed in single channel configs. Since it is a single CCX,I wonder how much it will affect CPU performance,as Ryzen needs fast RAM to get over the bandwidth limitations of the link between the CCX.

I am also interested to see how much IGP performance is affected in single channel sitations. A single channel RR config should produce more bandwidth than a dual channel BR config,and colour compression is two generations newer on Vega than GCN1.2 in BR. Will that mean in single channel mode,performance should still be passable?? IF so,that for me could be significant too. When reviews drop I do want to see testing in that metric.

Edit!!

Also looking at the Intel parts AMD compared the Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 7 Mobile APUs with you will notice something:
https://ark.intel.com/products/122589/Intel-Core-i7-8550U-Processor-8M-Cache-up-to-4_00-GHz
https://ark.intel.com/products/95451/Intel-Core-i7-7500U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_50-GHz-

They are configured at between 10W~25W TDP,and the Ryzen APUs are apparently configured at between 12W~25W. So like with Intel a larger chassis will mean the CPU and GPU will boost longer than one in a smaller chassis.

Also there is another reason AMD specifically tested against the Acer Swift 3:

The Swift 3 is a little different than the others – we were told that Acer has built this chassis to dissipate 25W of processor power rather than 15W, meaning that Acer is going to be taking advantage of longer turbo modes and better performance numbers than other Ryzen Mobile parts.
Click to expand...

That is the test laptop they used for the Core i5 8550u testing,so AMD was using an Intel laptop with a bigger chassis that would be more forgiving of a CPU:

https://i.imgur.com/kIMvkOd.jpg

It seems NBC actually tested the lower bin Ryzen 5 2500U,and it still beat the Core i5 8550U in the same chassis:

https://i.imgur.com/q8zYYV4.png

Computerbase.de,has pictures of the test:

https://www.computerbase.de/bildstrecke/80377/19/
 
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jigger said:
Will be interesting to see how the market responds and how AMD price chips. I know a lot of people that would be very interested in a note book with this kind of performance and decent battery life.
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The market can respond only positively. I mean we desperately wait for these chips to appear. AMD desperately needs the notebook market too.
Ryzen 7 1700 with lowered to 2.8GHz clocks would be a very nice notebook chip too!
 
Wonder how long before we see something like an APU with say R5 1600 level of CPU perf and an RX 580 level of GPU Perf bolted on to it? we cant be many years away from that? If AMD manages to bring 1080p 60fps level of perf to an APU and keep it competitive with non gaming tasks they will clean up.
 
4K8KW10 said:
The market can respond only positively. I mean we desperately wait for these chips to appear. AMD desperately needs the notebook market too.
Ryzen 7 1700 with lowered to 2.8GHz clocks would be a very nice notebook chip too!
Click to expand...

If AMD get the pricing correct with the apu`s I would have no problem buying a new laptop with AMD inside.
 
AndreiD said:
The question is if Zen + Vega can match the 15W TDP Intel 8th gen APUs given the pretty significant process disparity between GloFo's "14"nm and Intel's 14nm processes. I would be extremely impressed if they somehow managed to achieve that kind of performance in a similar TDP range, but I fear they might be comparing a higher TDP part to the 15W Intel ones.
Either way, I'm eagerly waiting for reviews, because if they are competitive with similar power consumption numbers as the 8th gen Intel APUs, they will have a winner on their hands. If on the other hand they have a ""15""W TDP part like some of their older APUs...
Click to expand...

We have seen Ryzen on 14nm do very well against Intel's Kaby Lake on 14nm+ in terms of power consumption. It's not like the difference between 14nm++ and 14nm+ is day and night. To meet 15W TDP AMD may have to cut back on iGPU performance but it should still comfortably beat the potato that is the HD620 iGPU.
 
Killer7xx said:
We have seen Ryzen on 14nm do very well against Intel's Kaby Lake on 14nm+ in terms of power consumption. It's not like the difference between 14nm++ and 14nm+ is day and night. To meet 15W TDP AMD may have to cut back on iGPU performance but it should still comfortably beat the potato that is the HD620 iGPU.
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What happened to the beefed up IGP Intel put into the Broadwell-C chips? Did they regress or was it just not that good in the first place and only looked good in comparison to their previous generations?
 
DragonQ said:
What happened to the beefed up IGP Intel put into the Broadwell-C chips? Did they regress or was it just not that good in the first place and only looked good in comparison to their previous generations?
Click to expand...

The eDRAM is found on certain SKUs,but mostly seems to be for their highest tier ULV ones now:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Plus-Graphics-650.190370.0.html

Edit!!

Looking at this list it seems none of the 4C/8T Kaby Lake mobile CPUs have eDRAM now:

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/intel-hd-graphics-comparison

The main issue with the eDRAM is that it was a separate chip,so adds to cost.
 
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