Another RTX GPU Moan Thread

[GordyR]

Tensor cores are used for denoising ray tracing produced by rt cores.

My understanding from having read the technical whitepapers and watching several NVidia presentations, is that RT denoising is not AI based and does not need to use the tensor cores.

"Denoising for real time applications is using an algorithm (cross-bilateral filtered denoising) and not AI (like NVIDIA's OptiX Ray Tracing Engine does)."

Here's some resources:

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1024813/

https://devblogs.nvidia.com/nvidia-turing-architecture-in-depth/

What a tensor core does is a fused matrix multiplication add operation (https://docs.nvidia.com/deeplearning/sdk/mixed-precision-training/index.html#tensorop). Basically, it does this entire operation of A x B + C = D in a single clock cycle instead of 8 cycles using normal CUDA cores. (A, B, C, D are matrices, A and B are fp16). This is extensively used in convolutional neural network which is the backbone of AI.

I suppose the bilateral filter that's used in RT denoising could be written to harness the tensor cores, but there's not really any particular reason to.

Do you believe DLSS would be able to be handled also at same time?

Unless there is some other evidence I've missed that would suggest otherwise, yes I believe that DLSS and RT can be handled simultaneously. In fact, I have every reason to suspect they were designed to do just that, so as to soften the burden of RT at higher resolutions.

 

[DrCrabHands]

Unless there is some other evidence I've missed that would suggest otherwise, yes I believe that DLSS and RT can be handled simultaneously.

I guess it's up to the Developer

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13282/nvidia-turing-architecture-deep-dive/9

 

[GordyR]

I guess it's up to the Developer

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13282/nvidia-turing-architecture-deep-dive/9

Thanks for that. So it looks as though several games are confirmed as supporting both DLSS and RT simultaneously.

 

[Kaapstad]

Care to back that up with some actual numbers?

Here's a helping hand, you can't. No one can, since there is no where Nvidia release this information, and even if you look at the 'owners' thread it's got about 10 people with an Xp on it.

All £1200 cards below and that is just for this forum.

The Roll of Honour.

Date 29/09/2018, NVidia Titan Xp, Tommy_Here, Link
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Date 14/11/2017, SW Empire Xp, Kaapstad, Link
Date 04/08/2017, NVidia Titan X, Zeed, Link
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Date 22/06/2017, NVidia Titan Xp, Kaapstad, Link
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Date 03/08/2016, NVidia Titan X, blasterbolt, Link



To get on the Roll of Honour all you have to do is post a pic with your user name on it of your Pascal Titan X.​

 

[Dan82]

As I mentioned previously, it's already proven they can co exist. Reviewers were given the star wars demo and were able to run it with DLSS. They even had the demo running with DLSS enabled and disabled showing fps improvment. Just look up some reviews on YouTube of the 2080ti FE card. Could have been oc3d.

 

[Kaapstad]

Just tried out DLSS on FFXV demo.

2080 Ti stock
7980XE @4.7
DLSS off




2080 Ti stock
7980XE @4.7
DLSS on




2080 Ti @2070/4000
7980XE @4.7
DLSS on




Impressive numbers using DLSS.

 

[DrCrabHands]

Thanks for that. So it looks as though several games are confirmed as supporting both DLSS and RT simultaneously.

No problem. Also from page 6 from that article:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13282/nvidia-turing-architecture-deep-dive/6

"For Turing, the tensor cores can accelerate the features under the NGX umbrella, which includes DLSS. They can also accelerate certain AI-based denoisers that cleanup and correct real time raytraced rendering, though most developers seem to be opting for non-tensor core accelerated denoisers at the moment."

 

[GordyR]

Impressive numbers using DLSS.

Indeed...

Now take Battlefield V with RTX on at 4K and add the same 30%+ performance increase, and there we have it, close to 60fps at 4K with RTX on ultra.

That's a far cry from the 1080p 60fps that everyone thought we would be getting.

I would go so far as to say that once devs are fully to grips with it and implementing it in tandem with DLSS, then RTX is set to outperform expectations (at least my own) in it's very first generation.

 

[GordyR]

They can also accelerate certain AI-based denoisers that cleanup and correct real time raytraced rendering, though most developers seem to be opting for non-tensor core accelerated denoisers at the moment."

Looks like I was right on the money then. I'm pleased, I thought I was going crazy for a moment when Panos indicated that the two features were mutually exclusive.

 

[TNA]

I understand what you're saying, but from the explanations of the technology involved, I still don't see any reason why it should make any difference. It's still just a post processing effect.

The input, be it a live game, or an on-rails demo, shouldn't technically make any difference at all in the same way that anti-aliasing or other up-scaling methods don't, unless of course they are actually doing something very deliberately deceitful under the hood.



I disagree. Square Enix have halted all PC development and the demo was created some time ago. I expect that as a result of halting development, they've simply not shipped off the game to NVidia in order to get an accurate DLSS profile.

Of course I could be completely wrong on all of this. This is just my current reasoning and until new evidence suggest otherwise, it's what I feel is most likely.

You disagree, but the reason you are providing for why you disagree does not compute for me

It obviously does make a difference otherwise why would they not have it on the full game and just the demo? I mean if what you are saying is right, all the work is done, just enable it on the full game right? Doubt it works that way at all to be honest. Not like they have not had enough time from the time they had the cards until now to do it. Getting AI training or whatever it is called in DLSS to work on a demo vs a full game has got to be a lot harder, otherwise they would have done it by now, not sure what there is to disagree with

If it was just as easy as a post processing effect to get it working, Nvidia would have had it on a lot more games by now. There is a lot more to it I suspect.

 

[DrCrabHands]

You disagree, but the reason you are providing for why you disagree does not compute for me

It obviously does make a difference otherwise why would they not have it on the full game and just the demo? I mean if what you are saying is right, all the work is done, just enable it on the full game right? Doubt it works that way at all to be honest. Not like they have not had enough time from the time they had the cards until now to do it. Getting AI training or whatever it is called in DLSS to work on a demo vs a full game has got to be a lot harder, otherwise they would have done it by now, not sure what there is to disagree with

If it was just as easy as a post processing effect to get it working, Nvidia would have had it on a lot more games by now. There is a lot more to it I suspect.

FFXV on PC has been canned. All future work has been cancelled.

From what i understand a developer give that game data to Nvidia, who feed that to the NGX AI and the DLSS algorithm is provided by a game ready driver. Should be easy to implement. Don't quote me on that one though!

 

[GordyR]

I mean if what you are saying is right, all the work is done, just enable it on the full game right?

At the very least, Square Enix would need to send their latest code off to NVidia, who would then run it through their supercomputers to create a DLSS AI profile for the game.

What I'm saying (and where I think we are disagreeing), is that I think the fact that we haven't seen it in the full game is not neccessarily indicative of it performing poorly, but more likely indicative of the fact that Square Enix have shut down PC development on the game.

Getting AI training or whatever it is called in DLSS to work on a demo vs a full game has got to be a lot harder, otherwise they would have done it by now, not sure what there is to disagree with

Absolutely, but what i'm referring to is the performance difference.

I think that the performance increase we are seeing in the demo should carry over to the full game if it were ever implemented. The fact that the demo is on rails shouldn't really come into it since for all intents and purposes, by the time it reaches a consumer's computer, it can be considered a highly advanced post-processing effect.

But both of us can only make educated guesses of course.

 

[Dan82]

Apparently Nvidia and Square Enix have confirmed the DLSS update is still coming regardless of the DLC cancellation. I'd imagine Square would have to honour this as they probably signed contracts. Square do seem to have a good relationship with Nvidia.

Other RTX features talked about was from the game director I think but nothing set in stone.

Source - http://www.redgamingtech.com/turings-crown-jewel-nvidia-dlss-benchmarks-with-final-fantasy-15/

 

[DarrenM343]

I will be sceptical about DLSS until we see it in real games, rather than demos personally. But I do hope it ends up being as good if not better by the time the 3080Ti comes out so I would have the option of using it on the most demanding of games for extra fps in the future.

We will know in the next 12-18 months whether all this RTX stuff will be a success or another PhysX by how many new games coming out which will support either ray tracing or dlss on release.

Agree, I want to see real DLSS implementations too. From what we've seen so far it seems highly likely it will give a big performance boost. Also, if you consider the Turing performance with DLSS, the performance improvements from Turing vs Pascal then becomes close to Pascal vs Maxwell. This makes me think DLSS is indeed going to prove pretty nifty and think that was Nvidia;s target. Could be wrong, we'll see.

It's a bit rubbish the BF5 has not yet used DLSS, even if they just implemented as a one or the other feature to start with (DLSS or RT). I thought this was meant to be the easiest of the two new technologies to implement.If people don't like the performance of RT they could switch it off and they'd sure as hell like a 25%+ boost in performance with DLSS.
Still early days for both techs yet.

 

[GordyR]

Apparently Nvidia and Square Enix have confirmed the DLSS update is still coming regardless of the DLC cancellation.

Ohhh that's good to know! It does make me wonder why they are holding off then. Perhaps they want the game to a certain state before getting the DLSS profile done and shutting down development?

Who knows?

 

[Journey]

All £1200 cards below and that is just for this forum.

Here's your quote "This time last year plenty of people were willing to drop £1200 on a Titan Xp."

There are 10 people on that list from this time last year.

In total about 39 unique people on that list that dates back 27 months, I wouldn't call that a big seller.

 

[TNA]

FFXV on PC has been canned. All future work has been cancelled.

From what i understand a developer give that game data to Nvidia, who feed that to the NGX AI and the DLSS algorithm is provided by a game ready driver. Should be easy to implement. Don't quote me on that one though!

I understand that it is canned. But if what he is saying is to make sense, how is it they got it working for the demo but not the full game? Not like both were not available when rtx came out. It is simple imo, one is a lot harder than the other.

The only thing I can think of is Square were happy to provide the code from the demo to nvidia, but not the code from the full game? If that is the case Nvidia would have known about that and knowingly said it would come out on FF15 to make their offering look better, knowing full well they would only do it for the demo. Again as I said I suspect it is not as easy as people think it is.

At the very least, Square Enix would need to send their latest code off to NVidia, who would then run it through their supercomputers to create a DLSS AI profile for the game.

What I'm saying (and where I think we are disagreeing), is that I think the fact that we haven't seen it in the full game is not neccessarily indicative of it performing poorly, but more likely indicative of the fact that Square Enix have shut down PC development on the game.



Absolutely, but what i'm referring to is the performance difference.

I think that the performance increase we are seeing in the demo should carry over to the full game if it were ever implemented. The fact that the demo is on rails shouldn't really come into it since for all intents and purposes, by the time it reaches a consumer's computer, it can be considered a highly advanced post-processing effect.

But both of us can only make educated guesses of course.

I agree we are both making educated guesses. I hope you are right and it works out. But I am taking more of the I will believe when I see it stance for the time being

 

[TNA]

Apparently Nvidia and Square Enix have confirmed the DLSS update is still coming regardless of the DLC cancellation. I'd imagine Square would have to honour this as they probably signed contracts. Square do seem to have a good relationship with Nvidia.

Other RTX features talked about was from the game director I think but nothing set in stone.

Source - http://www.redgamingtech.com/turings-crown-jewel-nvidia-dlss-benchmarks-with-final-fantasy-15/

See this makes more sense now. Good to see they are getting it done

Will be interesting to see how long it will take them to get it done. We will then have an idea how much work is involved.

 

[GordyR]

I thought this was meant to be the easiest of the two new technologies to implement.

Perhaps that's precisely why. During development you can expect the artwork, textures and visual look/feel to change significantly over time.

I'm being highly speculative here but I suppose you wouldn't want to get a DLSS profile done until the absolute last minute, when you could be certain that the level design and artwork are fully locked in.

If you implemented DLSS early on in development, you'd potentially be requiring new DLSS profiles every month.

Just some thoughts...

 

[Dan82]

Ohhh that's good to know! It does make me wonder why they are holding off then. Perhaps they want the game to a certain state before getting the DLSS profile done and shutting down development?

Who knows?

Well,they are still releasing 1 DLC pack so the game will probably require a pre patch which may include the DLSS profile.
I also noticed the ngx driver is getting updated regularly so maybe Nvidia have been ironing out bugs before games go live.

Have to say I was extremely impressed with the IQ of the benchmark. Ran and looked loads better than the pre game release version.