another school kid arrested

[Visage]

I assume so

But Leviticus 19:19 says that you shouldnt.....

Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

My point is that saying that the Koran says XYZ does not mean that all followers of the Koran studiously follow it.

So if there are offensive passages in the Koran (and i've no doubt that there are), its a whole different argument to suggest that beleivers in the Koran are strict adherents to those passages. Like any holy book, there are people who take it as a vague 'guide to life', and there are others who insist on interpreting it literally.

Its dodgy to say 'They Koran says XYZ, so all muslims beleive XYZ'.....

 

[VIRII]

But Leviticus 19:19 says that you shouldnt.....



My point is that saying that the Koran says XYZ does not mean that all followers of the Koran studiously follow it.

So if there are offensive passages in the Koran (and i've no doubt that there are), its a whole different argument to suggest that beleivers in the Koran are strict adherents to those passages. Like any holy book, there are people who take it as a vague 'guide to life', and there are others who insist on interpreting it literally.

Its dodgy to say 'They Koran says XYZ, so all muslims beleive XYZ'.....

I'll bet you'll not find a muslim on these forums who does not believe that the koran is the strict word of god and must be followed strictly.
Most Xians see the bible as a guide. The Koran is law. Huge difference.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Its dodgy to say 'They Koran says XYZ, so all muslims beleive XYZ'.....

And if we can give examples of countries that practice the negative aspects of the Koran?

What if a lot of Muslims believe in certain aspects of the Koran?

Oh, and BTW - if your 'mixed cloth' example is invalid BTW

Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear.

The word of Jesus contarvenes anything else.

 

[Van_Dammesque]

But Leviticus 19:19 says that you shouldnt.....



My point is that saying that the Koran says XYZ does not mean that all followers of the Koran studiously follow it.

So if there are offensive passages in the Koran (and i've no doubt that there are), its a whole different argument to suggest that beleivers in the Koran are strict adherents to those passages. Like any holy book, there are people who take it as a vague 'guide to life', and there are others who insist on interpreting it literally.

This was posted by me:

There is something called the koran though which could be interpreted as how to a be terrorist/gaybasher/misogynist!

Its dodgy to say 'They Koran says XYZ, so all muslims beleive XYZ'.....

So some muslims only partially beleive the koran? As some christians believe the bible. I could argue then they are NOT true muslims/christians (the same arguement as the muslim terroists use against "moderate" muslims), and pursue some sort cherry-picked beliefs.
So is a muslim not a muslim if he/she only picks the parts he/she wishes to persue? What is the threshold limit as to what percentage they must follow to classed a muslim/christian? Or is it black and white and no grey areas?

 

[Visage]

This was posted by me:

Its dodgy to say 'They Koran says XYZ, so all muslims beleive XYZ'.....[/.Quote]
So some muslims only partially beleive the koran? As some christians believe the bible. I could argue then they are NOT true muslims/christians (the same arguement as the muslim terroists use against "moderate" muslims), and pursue some sort cherry-picked beliefs.
So is a muslim not a muslim if he/she only picks the parts he/she wishes to persue? What is the threshold limit as to what percentage they must follow to classed a muslim/christian? Or is it black and white and no grey areas?

Im not arguing that there isnt a wide spectrum of adherence - i agree 100%.

I dont think that you can set a threshold as to who and whois not muslim based on their level of beleif. Im suggesting that its wrong to lump them all together. Most notably when its suggested that 'moderate muslims', who treat the Koran as a guide, rather than a rule, are expected to account for, and apologise for, the actions of those who treat it literally, like its somehow their fault that some nutjobs have gone overboard in their interpretation of a 1300 year old book.

 

[VIRII]

This was posted by me:





Im not arguing that there isnt a wide spectrum of adherence - i agree 100%.

I dont think that you can set a threshold as to who and whois not muslim based on their level of beleif. Im suggesting that its wrong to lump them all together. Most notably when its suggested that 'moderate muslims', who treat the Koran as a guide, rather than a rule, are expected to account for, and apologise for, the actions of those who treat it literally, like its somehow their fault that some nutjobs have gone overboard in their interpretation of a 1300 year old book.

When has anyone ever been asked to apologise for the actions of nutjobs?
What has been questioned is the peculiar disparity between reactions to various events though.
Cartoons = riots.
Suicide bombings = silence.

Surely both are blasphemies?

 

[cleanbluesky]

I dont think that you can set a threshold as to who and whois not muslim based on their level of beleif. Im suggesting that its wrong to lump them all together. Most notably when its suggested that 'moderate muslims', who treat the Koran as a guide, rather than a rule, are expected to account for, and apologise for, the actions of those who treat it literally, like its somehow their fault that some nutjobs have gone overboard in their interpretation of a 1300 year old book.

1) I treat Muslims as individuals but I do have issues with Islam.

2) I believe it utterly appropriate to hold Islam acountable for certain actions that it has inspired. That is not to say that it alone can cause such actions, merely that particularly Islam can be attributed to certain actions.

3) I don't believe in a 'moderate/extremist' divide.

4) Muslims identify themselves as a group with shared name and belief, if they don't want to associate then they should not continue to associate. If they disagree with the actions of their peers, they should take effort to stop the actions of their peers.

 

[Visage]

And if we can give examples of countries that practice the negative aspects of the Koran?

What if a lot of Muslims believe in certain aspects of the Koran?

Oh, and BTW - if your 'mixed cloth' example is invalid BTW



The word of Jesus contarvenes anything else.

But then Mohammed came along and (presumably) superceded Jesus

 

[Visage]

1) I treat Muslims as individuals but I do have issues with Islam.

2) I believe it utterly appropriate to hold Islam acountable for certain actions that it has inspired. That is not to say that it alone can cause such actions, merely that particularly Islam can be attributed to certain actions.

3) I don't believe in a 'moderate/extremist' divide.

4) Muslims identify themselves as a group with shared name and belief, if they don't want to associate then they should not continue to associate. If they disagree with the actions of their peers, they should take effort to stop the actions of their peers.

I know your quite careful with words, so I presume its relevant that in point 2 you used the term Islam, rather than Muslims. For what its worth, I agree.

 

[Van_Dammesque]

Im not arguing that there isnt a wide spectrum of adherence - i agree 100%.

Maybe a topic for a new thread?

I dont think that you can set a threshold as to who and whois not muslim based on their level of beleif. Im suggesting that its wrong to lump them all together. Most notably when its suggested that 'moderate muslims', who treat the Koran as a guide, rather than a rule, are expected to account for, and apologise for, the actions of those who treat it literally, like its somehow their fault that some nutjobs have gone overboard in their interpretation of a 1300 year old book.

Which for me, begs the question:
How do we know what parts they follow and which they disregard?

 

[Visage]

Maybe a topic for a new thread?



Which for me, begs the question:
How do we know what parts they follow and which they disregard?

By asking, rather than assuming?

 

[Van_Dammesque]

By asking, rather than assuming?

I am not in the habit of asking people about their beliefs (not taking into account the time and rudeness factor, what if I accidently incurr a fatwa?), as I am an atheist i refuse to entertain their delusions.

 

[Visage]

I am not in the habit of asking people about their beliefs (not taking into account the time and rudeness factor, what if I accidently incurr a fatwa?), as I am an atheist i refuse to entertain their delusions.

Well, with all due respect, your assumption that you'd incur a fatwa as a result of an innocent question regarding someone's faith is precisely the problem.

 

[Van_Dammesque]

Well, with all due respect, your assumption that you'd incur a fatwa as a result of an innocent question regarding someone's faith is precisely the problem.

How? You have already stated that there are nutjobs (your words) who follow the koran to the letter! Does the koran not state kill all infidels? So if I proclaim, showing my hand so to speak, that I am a non-believer and proceed to ask if they beleive that I should be killed is that not putting myself at risk?

Your serioulsy suggesting I go around and start poking into hornets nests? On the chance that I may bump into a "moderate"?

Then it goes back to my question, why does the "moderates" seperate themselves or change the "extremists"?


Example: would you go upto combat 18 thugs (evidently proclaiming their ideology) and ask politely which parts of nazism they believe in? (Particularly if you were a jew (evidently showing your ideology) for instance?)

 

[Visage]

How? You have already stated that there are nutjobs (your words) who follow the koran to the letter! Does the koran not state kill all infidels? So if I proclaim, showing my hand so to speak, that I am a non-believer and proceed to ask if they beleive that I should be killed is that not putting myself at risk?

Your serioulsy suggesting I go around and start poking into hornets nests? On the chance that I may bump into a "moderate"?

Then it goes back to my question, why does the "moderates" seperate themselves or change the "extremists"?


Example: would you go upto combat 18 thugs (evidently proclaiming their ideology) and ask politely which parts of nazism they believe in?

I prasume you never leave the house because you're afraid of getting run over by a bus?

 

[Van_Dammesque]

I prasume you never leave the house because you're afraid of getting run over by a bus?

Buses don't have a self-proclaimed ideology, neither do bus drivers have a manual saying run over people who are train users.

 

[Visage]

Buses don't have a self-proclaimed ideology, neither do bus drivers have a manual saying run over people who are train users.

Im not suggesting you walk up to anyone vaguely dark-skinned in the street and say 'So - you muslims - do you really like stoning gayers?'.

All im saying is that, IMO, if there was more asking and less assuming, then a lot of the problems that we see being dragged up on a daily basis simply wouldnt occur.

Serious question - how many of your friends are muslim?

 

[Jackal]

i'd make a comment, but it might be misconstrued as racist or not PC, so i won't.

but simply put, in her place, i would have said the same thing, i wudn't like to work in a group where only one other person spoke english, its unfair if nothing else.

IMO if your in this country, learn english before anything else, if you don't want to then leave

 

[Van_Dammesque]

Im not suggesting you walk up to anyone vaguely dark-skinned in the street and say 'So - you muslims - do you really like stoning gayers?'.

All im saying is that, IMO, if there was more asking and less assuming, then a lot of the problems that we see being dragged up on a daily basis simply wouldnt occur.

Serious question - how many of your friends are muslim?

None, neither do I have family or friends who are religous (of any sort).

You say ask, what exactly should I ask?

But is that is not the problem, the actual problem is the action of "asking"?
If you declare you are a muslim and then the koran describes your ideology I do not need to ask since it is there in black and white.
If you only hold certain beliefs it is not up to me to provide proof of your "moderism" it is up to you since you have nailed your colours to the mast of islam, which is dictated by the koran.

 

[Visage]

None, neither do I have family or friends who are religous (of any sort).

You say ask, what exactly should I ask?

But is that is not the problem, the actual problem is the action of "asking"?
If you declare you are a muslim and then the koran describes your ideology I do not need to ask since it is there in black and white.
If you only hold certain beliefs it is not up to me to provide proof of your "moderism" it is up to them since they have nailed their colours to the mast of islam, which is dictated by the koran.

Well thats just the thing, it isnt black and white. A lot of my mates are muslim, and I can assure you that they are just as ****** off with extremist muslims as anyone else - perhaps even more so, since it is them that have to deal with the assumption that they are the same. And at the end of the day they're in the same boat as we are - namely that, for those extremists, moderate muslims actually *arent* muslims. SO they have no more hope of changing the mind of extremists than you or I.