Another school shooting in the US

there is no obvious solution, most gun crime in the US is done with illegal guns.

too many guns out there, too late in the day to think banning them will solve anything.

I agree there is no over-night solution but as I said earlier less people buying guns means less guns are produced, which in turn over time makes their availability a lot less.

If you just shrug your shoulders, say there's no solution and ignore it the circular problem of massive amounts of guns being manufactured thus a massive amount of guns being available just continues.

If you banned all gun sales tomorrow (this is hypothetical not my advice) then eventually, over time (and yes it may take decades) the amount private citizens owning them would reduce to near zero.

If you have a lot of private citizens with guns, the opportunity to steal them is greater so you can't slack it off just buy saying "the guns was illegal so there's no problem with the system".
 
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Sorry 'cymatty' but I think I'll take the findings from one of Americas greatest University's rather than the ramblings of some pro gun 'armchair' expert like yourself!!
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

Well I have taken my graphs from here which are all sourced if you want to discredit them go ahead.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

The UK graph is also here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9411649/Graphic-how-the-murder-rate-has-fallen.html
 
Well I have taken my graphs from here which are all sourced if you want to discredit them go ahead.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

The UK graph is also here

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9411649/Graphic-how-the-murder-rate-has-fallen.html

They are misleading at best, when presented in isolation.

This for example:

34obi8y.png


Sure, the proportion of homicide by handguns has increased but read the text associated...

"Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the Chicago murder rate has averaged 17% lower than it was before the law took effect"

So more of the homicides per incident were with handguns but the actual number of homicides in total reduced.
 
Banning guns didn't impact gun related homicide then. If anything gun related homicide went up.

No, it more than likely went down, just not as much as non handgun related went down, translating into a nice misleading graph that makes it look like handgun related crime skyrocketed.

Just because other forms may have dipped more, doesn't necessarily mean the ban had no positive effect.
 
No, it more than likely went down, just not as much as non handgun related went down, translating into a nice misleading graph that makes it look like handgun related crime skyrocketed.

Just because other forms may have dipped more, doesn't necessarily mean the ban had no positive effect.

Thus, in the first seven years the handgun ban was in
effect, the number of handgun murders increased by
more than 56%, and the gun murder rate nearly
doubled

http://www.americanbar.org/content/..._PetitionerAmCuHeartlandInst.authcheckdam.pdf
 
Banning guns didn't impact gun related homicide then. If anything gun related homicide went up.

Look at the graph, it says "Portion of Chicago Murders of committed with Handguns" and is a percentage of the total. It is NOT number of murders committed with hand guns.

An example, let's say in 1979 that 2,000 murders happened and 840 were done with guns, that would represent a 42% figure on that graph.

Now let's say in 1999 that 1,000 murders were committed and 600 as a result of a handgun, that would represent a % of 60.

So it looks on a graph like handgun murders have gone up, when in fact they have reduced by more than 200.
 
So it looks on a graph like handgun murders have gone up, when in fact they have reduced by more than 200.

By 2003, the handgun murders committed increased to 442, from 290 in 1983. In 2003, 73.54% of
murders were committed with handguns. The handgun murder rate was 15.26. Id.

In the 25 years since Chicago’s handgun ban was
enacted, the number of handguns used in murders
and handgun murder rates dropped below 1983 levels
in only four years (1984-87). Id.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/..._PetitionerAmCuHeartlandInst.authcheckdam.pdf
 
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cymatty, why do you think a pro-gun site has used "portion of" instead of the direct numbers which would be the more obvious choice?

Obviously because that graph wouldn't look at good in terms of what they are trying to prove. Picking two data points that also confirm the bias you want to promote (like your quote above) doesn't prove anything either.

But I'd also add that one State banning guns isn't really the ideal situation given people can easily move between states unchecked. If you made guns readily available and legal in London I'd fully expect to see plenty of gun related homicide in the rest of the country despite it still have strict gun laws.
 
People consistently ignore the argument that changes all research done that is either pro or against guns.

If guns were never legal in the US, and no one had guns, all those graphs would be the same, and all the arguments would be the same, except people would be asking for bans on whatever the most common weapon used was if guns weren't available. If guns weren't available and gangs were running around with bows, everyone would be asking for them to be banned, if they were both banned and gangs were running around with axes, or baseball bats, etc, etc.

If this guy couldn't get hold of a gun, he could have driven a car full of extra petrol in cans into the school and set fire to the whole place, he may have killed several times as many people as he did.

Most murders would still be committed, gang culture in the states is responsible for a huge majority of murders in cities... do gangs exist because guns exist? No, would gang members still kill each other without guns, yes, would most murders happen anyway, yes.

Like I said, people like to talk about guns and violence because it makes us feel more comfortable thinking in a country with widespread gun control that it isn't as violent here and that we're "safe", because everyone wants to feel safe.

Almost all the arguments are illogical and stupid, with a huge portion of arguments resting on guns being easier to kill people with than other weapons, which is both horse**** and not even logical.
Ultimately when you CHOOSE to kill someone, that is the difficult part, the choice, not the trigger or the knife, or the fire, or the car, or the bat, or poison.

Fire and poison are ridiculously easy ways to kill en masse, and with more chance of getting away, both are also WIDELY available around the globe and need no training to implement at all. As much as people think Call of Duty makes you a great aim in real life, running targets, reloading, theres a reason why in most shootings most shots miss.

Is it really easier to go into a school and shoot everyone, than to get a job in the local supermarket and put poison into all the milk cartons, or set fire to a building, run people over, really?

The world is FULL of crappy people willing to do crappy things for whatever reason, guns don't make those people crappy, or make it easier to kill large numbers of people. The sobering, horrible reality is just about anyone you've ever met is fully capable of killing hundreds of people pretty easily if they really wanted to, very few people choose to do so, because while so many people are pretty crappy some of the time, most people aren't THAT crap.

Tragedies, mass murders are just something that happen, always have, always will, no matter what measures we think will prevent them, they won't.
 
It is horrific but is happening so often over there not even surprising nowadays. That is so sad when you think about it, even the title thread 'another'.

Yet I fear it will change nothing over there. The moment anybody talks gun controls, not an outright ban there is instant hysteria.

I cannot for the life of me understand why so many object to controls that would see these weapons licensed so they are used properly and the owners vetted. Why on Earth a citizen is not only allowed, but wants to own an assault rifle/machine gun is totally beyond me.

Anyway it will never happen I doubt in my lifetime so these tragic incidents are likely to continue.
 
Almost all the arguments are illogical and stupid, with a huge portion of arguments resting on guns being easier to kill people with than other weapons, which is both horse**** and not even logical.

Genuine question, why do armies arm their soldiers with firearms instead of a sword and shield if, by your logic, guns are no more dangerous or effective than any other weapon?

Why on Earth a citizen is not only allowed, but wants to own an assault rifle/machine gun is totally beyond me.

I share this bemusement. I can only put it down to what I describe as 14 year old boy syndrome (as that was the last time I thought guns were 'cool').
 
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You can't use total populations either as they don't take into account population growth or other socio-economic changes.

I work in statistics, unless I get the data firsthand I couldn't say for sure - but what I can get data on is the global gun crime statistics which go against everything you are saying.

Ultimately when you CHOOSE to kill someone, that is the difficult part, the choice, not the trigger or the knife, or the fire, or the car, or the bat, or poison.
Do you have anything to backup this pretty dodgy claim?, or is this a "hunch"?.
 
Here comes the gun control nuts.

Finland has strict gun control laws and the amount of multiple victim shootings is the same as Washington (which has a similar population). The problem isn't the guns, guns will always be available illegally. The problem is that most of the people who commit these shootings are mentally ill and have usually showed signs beforehand and no-one does anything.
 
Here comes the gun control nuts.

Finland has strict gun control laws and the amount of multiple victim shootings is the same as Washington (which has a similar population). The problem isn't the guns, guns will always be available illegally. The problem is that most of the people who commit these shootings are mentally ill and have usually showed signs beforehand and no-one does anything.
Ok, so if the problem is people with mental illnesses.

Don't you think gun control needs to be improved so mentally ill people can't get guns?, or an acceptance that if mental illness cannot be resolved/predicted in all cases restrict guns so mentally ill people can't get them from the local supermarket?.
 
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