'Anti' Isalm cartoons....
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Soldato
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I must admit I am getting a little concerned with comments on here.
This has been growing for a long time, and is not just about cartoons - as can be seen by the European unwillingness to capitulate over something meaningless and the Muslim reaction of threatening violence against Europe (not just the artist).
The trouble is, this is exactly what I think most people have wanted to avoid - a complete breakdown and teetering violence.
Whether you are one of the 'apologists' or the 'right wing' I think they have both agreed that peace is the most important factor in the situation - and this is what we seem to be struggling with right now regardless of any forseeable approaches.
This has been growing for a long time, and is not just about cartoons - as can be seen by the European unwillingness to capitulate over something meaningless and the Muslim reaction of threatening violence against Europe (not just the artist).
The trouble is, this is exactly what I think most people have wanted to avoid - a complete breakdown and teetering violence.
Whether you are one of the 'apologists' or the 'right wing' I think they have both agreed that peace is the most important factor in the situation - and this is what we seem to be struggling with right now regardless of any forseeable approaches.
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It may of been mentioned but have not read hole thread, but why do Muslims take this so seriously it was a cartoon after all?
If there were similar cartoons of Jesus you wouldn't see thousands of Christians on the streets threatening violence, calling for war & burning flags etc. we all probably have a good laugh and forget all about it.
And as for the London protesters with the threatening signs, I hope they are all locked up for a long time but I guess the police would be too afraid of calls of discrimination, all very sad IMHO.
If there were similar cartoons of Jesus you wouldn't see thousands of Christians on the streets threatening violence, calling for war & burning flags etc. we all probably have a good laugh and forget all about it.
And as for the London protesters with the threatening signs, I hope they are all locked up for a long time but I guess the police would be too afraid of calls of discrimination, all very sad IMHO.
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I think for SOME muslims this was just an excuse to start violence and stir things up, I mean it was one Danish newspaper that first published this, right? Followed by a few other countries. And now they are saying Europe will pay? Sounds to me like SOME muslims have wanted something like this to happen for a while so they can cause chaos.
Eitherway, something like this was going to happen sooner or later.
Eitherway, something like this was going to happen sooner or later.
AFAIK there are no verses in the Qur'an that say that pictures of Muhammed are forbidden. I'm not too sure where it says this, it may have been a command of the Prophet himself. :dunno:
These placards that have been posted of the protestors really sadden me. People like this are just too filled with hate or anger to see what it is that they are doing.
These placards that have been posted of the protestors really sadden me. People like this are just too filled with hate or anger to see what it is that they are doing.
few problems here
1.the cartoon was from last september and only came to light after a french based paper re-printed it (as far as i know)
2.the protesters from london today DIDNT and WONT get arrested (small note if you or i did this as white non muslim protesters we would get arrested and held under anti terrorism laws)
3.islam is a peacefull faith, so why do they insit on wanting to hang,be head and murder people who poke a little bit of fun at it, or dont agree with there views.
to be honest this has been a long time coming and its only liable to get worse untill either people take there heads out of there backsides over religion or ww3 hits and we have a very messy future. hopfully it will be the former as religion in the west and middle east is a farce. all it seems to have promoted through out history is death and destruction.
1.the cartoon was from last september and only came to light after a french based paper re-printed it (as far as i know)
2.the protesters from london today DIDNT and WONT get arrested (small note if you or i did this as white non muslim protesters we would get arrested and held under anti terrorism laws)
3.islam is a peacefull faith, so why do they insit on wanting to hang,be head and murder people who poke a little bit of fun at it, or dont agree with there views.
to be honest this has been a long time coming and its only liable to get worse untill either people take there heads out of there backsides over religion or ww3 hits and we have a very messy future. hopfully it will be the former as religion in the west and middle east is a farce. all it seems to have promoted through out history is death and destruction.
I find it hard to understand a people who demonstrate such righteous indignation at something that:
1) Mostly, they have only been told about.
2) They cannot quote from their own holy text an example saying that it is forbidden to make a picture/sculpture of the prophet Mohammed.
3) Manifest such hatred and threaten such violence towards the countries who have allowed them to settle and follow their religion.
Certainly, in Britain, many of these ingrates have improved the lives of their family and taken as much as possible from the state; whilst at the same time maintaining ghettos and hardly making any effort to integrate into the local community; so much so that there are still quite a few who don't even speak broken English.
I feel that most of these ingrates should be rounded up and deported back to the country or their great grandparents to live in a mud hut, without a welfare state and possibly under opression from a violent dictator too.
Never mind "how dare you?"; how about "who the **** do you think you are?"
Go back to your desert and your goats, be happy in practicing your religion amongst fellow muslims and leave the countries and people that you hate so much to get on with their lives and beliefs; we'll all be happier, and in Britain's case, somwhat better off.
I'll take my chances without the muslims and what they may or may not contribute here; let them do the same back in their backward, uncivilised countries.
1) Mostly, they have only been told about.
2) They cannot quote from their own holy text an example saying that it is forbidden to make a picture/sculpture of the prophet Mohammed.
3) Manifest such hatred and threaten such violence towards the countries who have allowed them to settle and follow their religion.
Certainly, in Britain, many of these ingrates have improved the lives of their family and taken as much as possible from the state; whilst at the same time maintaining ghettos and hardly making any effort to integrate into the local community; so much so that there are still quite a few who don't even speak broken English.
I feel that most of these ingrates should be rounded up and deported back to the country or their great grandparents to live in a mud hut, without a welfare state and possibly under opression from a violent dictator too.
Never mind "how dare you?"; how about "who the **** do you think you are?"
Go back to your desert and your goats, be happy in practicing your religion amongst fellow muslims and leave the countries and people that you hate so much to get on with their lives and beliefs; we'll all be happier, and in Britain's case, somwhat better off.
I'll take my chances without the muslims and what they may or may not contribute here; let them do the same back in their backward, uncivilised countries.
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Soldato
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The reason that these cartoons have sparked interest now is because Dutch Muslims have been touring Saudi showing them off, and have made up three ultra-offensive ones to go with the set.
One of Mohammed or a praying Muslim being raped by a dog, one of Mohammed as a paedophile with horns and one as a piggy...
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamic-society-of-denmark-used-fake.html
Makes me wonder just whether the protesters know whether the later ones are fakes and whether our PC media would dare suggest that much of the problem has been Danish Muslim **** stirring... I wonder if Muslims will not turn on the Danish Muslims because of THEIR cartoons, or perhaps just continue to threaten and attack non-Muslims?
And I would also like to say a big thankyou to the stupid and ignorant American State Department who should be showing solidarity for what Europe is doing at the moment - perhaps they like their media sugar coated but in the smarter/slimmer part of the world we like the feel Truth is Beauty even if said truth is harsh and disturbing...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203...j3bEfQA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
One of Mohammed or a praying Muslim being raped by a dog, one of Mohammed as a paedophile with horns and one as a piggy...
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamic-society-of-denmark-used-fake.html
Makes me wonder just whether the protesters know whether the later ones are fakes and whether our PC media would dare suggest that much of the problem has been Danish Muslim **** stirring... I wonder if Muslims will not turn on the Danish Muslims because of THEIR cartoons, or perhaps just continue to threaten and attack non-Muslims?
And I would also like to say a big thankyou to the stupid and ignorant American State Department who should be showing solidarity for what Europe is doing at the moment - perhaps they like their media sugar coated but in the smarter/slimmer part of the world we like the feel Truth is Beauty even if said truth is harsh and disturbing...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060203...j3bEfQA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
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Sorry, but Islamics are a pure bunch of loony tunes.
We really need to close our borders to these utterly wierd, violent, losers.
.. and to any Islamics that may offend, come and try it with your fatwa's.
I used to be of the firm opinion that the US was the primary source of global instability, now I KNOW its the diminished mental capacity of the fanatacists.
Islam is dangerous, and I cant see it getting any less so.
We really need to close our borders to these utterly wierd, violent, losers.
.. and to any Islamics that may offend, come and try it with your fatwa's.
I used to be of the firm opinion that the US was the primary source of global instability, now I KNOW its the diminished mental capacity of the fanatacists.
Islam is dangerous, and I cant see it getting any less so.
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I have read a few pages so far and shocked but at the same time thinking whether or not it’s just not enough education in this area.
Anything that happens to Muslims that catches media attention only show the negative aspects. Every time someone is on TV it’s not a Muslim with the true beliefs of Islam but instead one that says "Yeah we get treated unfair!" "Yeah we will kill!" etc.
There are a range of Muslim leaders, representatives and so on but they get given the opportunity to speak out at times when all of you are not watch the TV or in small articles in local papers. These people show the true meaning of Islam; it is a peaceful religion, in no way promotes violence and is a way of life.
The term freedom of speech - Would you people mind if I said some harsh remarks about other religions or if a Muslim country printed mocking images of Jews in the Holocaust or laughing at the supposed Jesus on the cross or something along these things? I think not. To some of you Islam is merely a hobby or a silly religion, that’s fine, we can all have our opinions. However never in the history of Islam has ANY image been printed of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and just because its "the 21st century" doesn’t give right to break this.
This isn’t a realistic view, you are implying you are doing Muslims a favour and that we spit it back? What happened to the term EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES? Who in the UK has caused violence? The media only show the extremists to intentionally give a dim view on Islam, you don’t see the real set ups, the groups educating Young Muslims correctly, the groups that don’t use violence but education, the groups that want to set the record straight but are kept quiet because they are not given the opportunity to get mainstream media attention.
Have you seen Muslim businessmen and woman? How much they contribute to the UK, no im not on about takeaway owners (stereotypical view). Gordon Brown even said it himself “Muslims in Britain play a key role in the success of the UKs economy”. You are basing your opinion of biased source, which is unfair. I could equally say Muslims are paying taxes so that people like you can take advantage of free services, would this offend you? I hope so because that is how you sound.
This may be such a minor issue to probably all of you but Islam is a way of life, which Muslims live by and to have it insulted in such a way is just unacceptable.
No Muslim has published any cartoons of the prophet (pbuh).
“We are not of their faith - why should we let them decide what we are and are not allowed to do and what the standards of 'offence' and socially acceptable behaviour is?”
This is where I discuss educational needs, do you feel that because someone is different towards your race it gives them the right to insult you? “They” as you say are not setting any standards, who is they btw? I am assuming you mean Muslims as a whole.
“they didn’t originate here”
This is going on to racial stuff, as a brief comment this country would not be as successful as it is today without “foreigners”. The dirty jobs that no white man would do were performed by non whites and as time went by they became a little more accepted and now a lot of people actually treat non whites like humans, history shows non whites were treated less than human in the UK and the US.
“Double standards or what”
You are focusing the beheadings on what? A group of 30 people? Al Jazeera is a NEWS station, they report NEWS. How can you compare this to this situation?
“Religion causes misery”
Explains why Islam is the fastest growing religion (statsically) in the world I guess and so many people are joining the Alpha course and so on.
Denmark – this country has a history of racism and specially hatred towards Muslims. Most of the parties there are set up solely against Islam.
“If people want to live without religion then so be it, it's their choice. However, just because you choose not to believe does not mean that those who do are stupid for being offended when you deliberately set out to insult them.”
Absolutely, does this mean that a person with a religion can taunt every person without a religion and shout “you’re going to hell” and put it in their face?
A long example but the comment about the wife being a ****, would you people mind if someone called your loved ones slags? After all freedom of speech….double standards.
It is unfortunate and true that thanks to the media when you see a Muslim it is “oh terrorist” and they get laughed at, this is sad but the media is to blame. I already said it but they always show the negative aspects, making people think there are no positive aspects to Islam and Muslims, there is so much good to show but they refuse. Media motto “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.
I see a lot of double standards in opinions and I see it a lot in the media.
I personally feel that before any of you can have an opinion you do your own research into Islam, find its true meaning and then you will see it is far from dangerous. It is intended for a peaceful way of life, to live with respect and care and to worship your creator.
It is the people who are flawed, not the religion.
Anything that happens to Muslims that catches media attention only show the negative aspects. Every time someone is on TV it’s not a Muslim with the true beliefs of Islam but instead one that says "Yeah we get treated unfair!" "Yeah we will kill!" etc.
There are a range of Muslim leaders, representatives and so on but they get given the opportunity to speak out at times when all of you are not watch the TV or in small articles in local papers. These people show the true meaning of Islam; it is a peaceful religion, in no way promotes violence and is a way of life.
The term freedom of speech - Would you people mind if I said some harsh remarks about other religions or if a Muslim country printed mocking images of Jews in the Holocaust or laughing at the supposed Jesus on the cross or something along these things? I think not. To some of you Islam is merely a hobby or a silly religion, that’s fine, we can all have our opinions. However never in the history of Islam has ANY image been printed of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and just because its "the 21st century" doesn’t give right to break this.
Hodders said:
This isn’t a realistic view, you are implying you are doing Muslims a favour and that we spit it back? What happened to the term EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES? Who in the UK has caused violence? The media only show the extremists to intentionally give a dim view on Islam, you don’t see the real set ups, the groups educating Young Muslims correctly, the groups that don’t use violence but education, the groups that want to set the record straight but are kept quiet because they are not given the opportunity to get mainstream media attention.
Have you seen Muslim businessmen and woman? How much they contribute to the UK, no im not on about takeaway owners (stereotypical view). Gordon Brown even said it himself “Muslims in Britain play a key role in the success of the UKs economy”. You are basing your opinion of biased source, which is unfair. I could equally say Muslims are paying taxes so that people like you can take advantage of free services, would this offend you? I hope so because that is how you sound.
This may be such a minor issue to probably all of you but Islam is a way of life, which Muslims live by and to have it insulted in such a way is just unacceptable.
No Muslim has published any cartoons of the prophet (pbuh).
“We are not of their faith - why should we let them decide what we are and are not allowed to do and what the standards of 'offence' and socially acceptable behaviour is?”
This is where I discuss educational needs, do you feel that because someone is different towards your race it gives them the right to insult you? “They” as you say are not setting any standards, who is they btw? I am assuming you mean Muslims as a whole.
“they didn’t originate here”
This is going on to racial stuff, as a brief comment this country would not be as successful as it is today without “foreigners”. The dirty jobs that no white man would do were performed by non whites and as time went by they became a little more accepted and now a lot of people actually treat non whites like humans, history shows non whites were treated less than human in the UK and the US.
“Double standards or what”
You are focusing the beheadings on what? A group of 30 people? Al Jazeera is a NEWS station, they report NEWS. How can you compare this to this situation?
“Religion causes misery”
Explains why Islam is the fastest growing religion (statsically) in the world I guess and so many people are joining the Alpha course and so on.
Denmark – this country has a history of racism and specially hatred towards Muslims. Most of the parties there are set up solely against Islam.
“If people want to live without religion then so be it, it's their choice. However, just because you choose not to believe does not mean that those who do are stupid for being offended when you deliberately set out to insult them.”
Absolutely, does this mean that a person with a religion can taunt every person without a religion and shout “you’re going to hell” and put it in their face?
A long example but the comment about the wife being a ****, would you people mind if someone called your loved ones slags? After all freedom of speech….double standards.
It is unfortunate and true that thanks to the media when you see a Muslim it is “oh terrorist” and they get laughed at, this is sad but the media is to blame. I already said it but they always show the negative aspects, making people think there are no positive aspects to Islam and Muslims, there is so much good to show but they refuse. Media motto “never let the truth get in the way of a good story”.
I see a lot of double standards in opinions and I see it a lot in the media.
I personally feel that before any of you can have an opinion you do your own research into Islam, find its true meaning and then you will see it is far from dangerous. It is intended for a peaceful way of life, to live with respect and care and to worship your creator.
It is the people who are flawed, not the religion.
Soldato
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Free Speech RIP
Friday the 3rd of Febuary 2006
Seriously, do you reckon that newspapers will publish anything that may offend Muslims? After the reaction of a cartoon?
I am sure the Christians didn't get this upset when God was shown as a grumpy old man in Monty Pythons the Holy Grail? Or all the offensive jokes in Life of Brian? No!
I am Brian and so is my wife.
Essential liberties including free speach should outrank just about any other laws. Civilized society is based on such laws.
I am starting to get very mad at the TV when the news is on.
When the government give in to the extremists (of all creeds and religions) then what is next? No offensive jokes or cartoons at all about religion? What if people kick up a stink about something so benign now that you would consider it non offensive in any way but becuase of pressure from "campaingners" is considered offensive by the government?
I don;t want to live in fear because I may say the wrong thing and offend some Muslims and get my life threatened.
Friday the 3rd of Febuary 2006
Seriously, do you reckon that newspapers will publish anything that may offend Muslims? After the reaction of a cartoon?
I am sure the Christians didn't get this upset when God was shown as a grumpy old man in Monty Pythons the Holy Grail? Or all the offensive jokes in Life of Brian? No!
I am Brian and so is my wife.
Essential liberties including free speach should outrank just about any other laws. Civilized society is based on such laws.
I am starting to get very mad at the TV when the news is on.
When the government give in to the extremists (of all creeds and religions) then what is next? No offensive jokes or cartoons at all about religion? What if people kick up a stink about something so benign now that you would consider it non offensive in any way but becuase of pressure from "campaingners" is considered offensive by the government?
I don;t want to live in fear because I may say the wrong thing and offend some Muslims and get my life threatened.
Soldato
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1) Their Koran says nothing about non-Muslims depicting Mohammed
2) Some of the cartoons that are stirring anger were drawn by Danish Muslims to stir hatred (see my previous post for link)
3) The reaction has not been aimed at withddrawing the cartoons, or gaining apology. Most of the reaction seems to be that they wish to kill Europeans and such (many placards stated this in protest today, somethin which clearly falls foul of race hate laws yet somehow goes unnoticed by our government)
This isn't about the cartoons, this is a combination of things that Muslims dislike about us. Well I prefer being our lifestyle to theirs and if they want to change that I say let them try.
"Never a bomb made that will shatter the crystal spirit" Orwell
2) Some of the cartoons that are stirring anger were drawn by Danish Muslims to stir hatred (see my previous post for link)
3) The reaction has not been aimed at withddrawing the cartoons, or gaining apology. Most of the reaction seems to be that they wish to kill Europeans and such (many placards stated this in protest today, somethin which clearly falls foul of race hate laws yet somehow goes unnoticed by our government)
This isn't about the cartoons, this is a combination of things that Muslims dislike about us. Well I prefer being our lifestyle to theirs and if they want to change that I say let them try.
"Never a bomb made that will shatter the crystal spirit" Orwell
"I don;t want to live in fear because I may say the wrong thing and offend some Muslims and get my life threatened."
Do you honestly believe that people will live in fear of muslims here in the UK? Since 9/11 all muslims have recieved is discrimination and attacks, its the muslims in the uk that live in fear because people think "get the b*******" for what "they" <<?? have done.
Do you honestly believe that people will live in fear of muslims here in the UK? Since 9/11 all muslims have recieved is discrimination and attacks, its the muslims in the uk that live in fear because people think "get the b*******" for what "they" <<?? have done.
Soldato
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zain said:
7/7 - what about that?
What about todays threats against Europe?
cleanbluesky said:
1) Islam states no image should be drawn and that all non muslims should be treated equally and with respect as you would treat a fellow muslim, surely if a muslim treats you with respect you should do the same?
2)Erm, no they werent and if a muslim did draw them, how is he or she muslim if they dont follow the rules?
3) You cannot base your actions upon a few, the people who request blood are but a few and not the majority of muslims.
If this was not about the cartoons why would people bother protesting? Its solely about the cartoons, a true muslim does hate or have any dislike about other peoples way of lives. Muslims have a duty to respect all races and religions and im sure they expect the same in return? They dont want to change lifestyles, they merely want their religion respected rather than mocked, specially with no decent reason.
"Foolishness always results when the tongue outraces the brain."
cleanbluesky said:
Indeed a tradgic event. What about palestine and the innocent muslims being killed? What about the father being shot dead infront of his son when he was an unarmed civilian? what about the below 10 year old children who throw little stones being shot dead? What about the thousands of innocent muslims in fear in the uk? what about the muslims being insulted by the BNP leader? What about the unfairness muslims recieve like they are animals?
The threats against Europe are by extremists, every religion has them and they do not represent the majority.
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zain said:
How is holding up placards that read in summary, "Down with Europe" or "Europe will pay" expressing their desire to be respected.
This was one set of cartoons from one person that started in one newspaper. These religious nutcases are throwing a hissy fit over it. This is not a request to be respected, this is a demand. This is coming from the same group of people that wants the downfall of isreal, has animated cartoons of other israelies in demeaning roles.
IMO, this attitude is being held by the majority of muslims, not the minority. Where are the muslims who are against these threats? I havent seen them writing to their leaders asking for an apolagy, like a civilized person would. I dont see them on the news asking other muslims to stop with the threats and use the civilised method of asking for an apology. If I dont like something a news paper publishes I do one or more of the following things: a) write a letter to the editor b) write a rebutal c) refuse to purchase the paper any more. I do NOT stand outside with a sign that claims that EUROPE will be punished for the actions of a few newspaper and one man.
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zain said:
You said that it would never effect the UK. My point was that it already has.
I don't get what you are saying in the above quote. None of the things you have listed are a result of the cartoons, some are the result of Muslim on Muslim violence. The BNP have free speech. If you think Muslims are being treated like animals over here, you have been reading too much propaganda.
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zain said:
In fear? They brought that on themselves. They come to your country, live in a western society and then make threats when they dont agree with the society.
What about the innocent Israelies, who have nothing to do with the military or government, being blown up by some coward with TNT straped to his or her chest, while they are on the bus or eating at a cafe? What about the innocent muslims being killed EVERYDAY by other muslims who plant explosives in markets, or cars or near places of worship.
The only muslims who are recieving bad treatment are the ones who condone the actions of cowards who deliberatly attack innocent people. Muslims in general are not being targeted. There are plenty of muslims who have great jobs and are respected in their fields.
It is the attitude like the one you expressed, the idea that all muslims are being targetted because they are muslim, that incites hatred and fear and paranoia.
Stiff_Cookie said:
So every muslim in the world agrees with the signs that talk about destroying Europe? do they have a plan to swim to An eastern country then because muslims live in europe. I stated before that you rarely see the proper leaders and representatives in the papers or on the news, why? because the media do not give them a chance, there is no story in truth or money to be made so why would they do this? Have a chat with the Muslim council of britain, have a chat with established mosques, ask educated muslims not a few radical youths that the media shows so you can say Muslims are bad people.
"I havent seen them writing to their leaders asking for an apolagy, " Sorry, but could you rephrase this?
You are basing like previous people your opinions on a sign held by a group of 20? 30? people. How can this be so? Indeed they are in the wrong demanding Europe be destroyed.
Given the chance, the true representatives would speak out for Islam. They still speak out but do not hit the main line of people they need to, instead only a few get to hear the true views of muslims.