'Anti' Isalm cartoons....

Chronos-X · 4 Feb 2006 at 00:42

I think they need to realise that if you're not a muslim you dont automatically become a jew, or christian. In this country we largely run our lives without the influence of either!

cleanbluesky · 4 Feb 2006 at 00:52

Okay, but what if they dont suddenly decide to lighten up?

Europe cannot back down, because it will just make future potential confrontation more likely...

James H · 4 Feb 2006 at 00:54

cbs, i gotta say im a fan, you always know what your talking about. out of interest how old are you?

cleanbluesky · 4 Feb 2006 at 00:56

James H said:
cbs, i gotta say im a fan, you always know what your talking about. out of interest how old are you?

There is such a things as e-mail, I know OE probably takes as much as 5 seconds of your time to load of course...

EDIT: in fact, check your mail right now

Arcade Fire · 4 Feb 2006 at 00:56

Stiff_Cookie said:
As for the paper line that you asked me to clarify. I dont think it would be too difficult for a muslim leader to write a letter to a major newspaper stating that they found the cartoons offensive, if they did, but do not condione violent action and recognise the artists right to freedom of expression? Why not buy a full page in the paper?

I apologise if someone has already mentioned this, because I didn't really want to read seven pages of thread. But many people seem to underestimate how sacred the 'no-idolatry' clause is in the Muslim faith. It's on a level with how hard we cling onto democracy and freedom of expression - it's an underlying tenet of their entire belief system. For someone (a foreigner, no less!) to produce a cartoon depicting Allah and insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists is not only grossly insulting - it's like someone over here being hanged because they criticised the Prime Minister in print.

Over here, we recognise the individual as the fundamental unit of society - that's why we place such import on things like freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of the press. It's partly why we've recognised the separation of church and state for so long. Over there, the church is the state, and it's more important than any single person within it. To characterize it in such poor taste as was done in these cartoons is a horrific crime, in their eyes. As I said, it's like us temporarily suspending the right to free speech for a day.

I'm not trying to condone their actions, and I'm certainly not trying to say that they have it right and we have it wrong (or vice versa, necessarily...) but I think it's important to understand why so many people are so upset by what appear to us to be 'just cartoons'.

Edit: On a more practical note, you'd think that as an 'advanced' or 'enlightened' society we'd be responsible enough to see that it's just not a good idea to go about brazenly insulting an entire nation, many of whom already hate us! Making a mockery of their reaction isn't going to make the situation any better. The outsider kids who get made fun of in school don't suddenly become part of the cool gang - they become part of the 'bring an AK47 to shoot your classmates' gang. The most sensible response would be an apology on the part of those concerned, with the recognition that taking the **** out of an entire nation is probably going to have undesirable consequences - be they justified or not!

cleanbluesky · 4 Feb 2006 at 01:01

Arcade Fire said:
I'm not trying to condone their actions, and I'm certainly not trying to say that they have it right and we have it wrong (or vice versa, necessarily...) but I think it's important to understand why so many people are so upset by what appear to us to be 'just cartoons'.

We know they're insulted, they've made this clear.

Perhaps a more suitable comparison would be - they print something inflammatory and we attack and threaten anything Muslim randomly for something non-violent that a single Muslim on the other side of the planet has drawn...

Does this sound like reasonable behaviour if someone is insulted, ESPECIALLY WHEN IN THIS CASE THE THREE WORST CARTOONS WERE DRAWN BY MUSLIMS IN AN EFFORT TO **** STIR? (Wanna know what I mean by this, check a link I posted a few pages back)

Arcade Fire · 4 Feb 2006 at 01:06

cleanbluesky said:
Perhaps a more suitable comparison would be - they print something inflammatory and we attack and threaten anything Muslim randomly for something non-violent that a single Muslim on the other side of the planet has drawn...

Did you not read the part where I tried to emphasise how important the rule against making images is to most Muslims? It's as if a westerner was publicly executed by the Muslim government for exercising his right to free speech. Over there, there isn't a right to free speech. Over here there is. Over here, there isn't a law forbidding idols. Over there, there is, and it's as sacred to them as our principles of freedom are.

cleanbluesky said:
Does this sound like reasonable behaviour if someone is insulted, ESPECIALLY WHEN IN THIS CASE THE THREE WORST CARTOONS WERE DRAWN BY MUSLIMS IN AN EFFORT TO **** STIR?

Edit--I didn't read your link, will read it now

cleanbluesky · 4 Feb 2006 at 01:12

Arcade Fire said:
Did you not read the part where I tried to emphasise how important the rule against making images is to most Muslims? It's as if a westerner was publicly executed by the Muslim government for exercising his right to free speech. Over there, there isn't a right to free speech. Over here there is. Over here, there isn't a law forbidding idols. Over there, there is, and it's as sacred to them as our principles of freedom are.

No, its more like a cartoon was published. In fact, its SUSPICIOUSLY like a cartoon was published. If you have read the thread, you would realise that 3 of the cartoons were drawn by Muslims (yet it seems there is no anger at those Danish Muslims who did this) and that Muslims have drawn pictures of Mohammed before.

Did those Muslims print their cartoons in their own papers then, and distribute them themselves? They were clearly idiots, but that doesn't justify the idiocy on the part of the people who saw to it that they got printed - ESPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO REPRINTED THEM AFTER THE INITIAL FUROR!

They went on a tour of Saudi Arabia telling people that Danish cartoonist had drawn pictures of Mohammed as a pig, a padeo and pictures of a Muslim being raped by a canine. When the cartoons were originally released, no-one cared. So Muslims went around the middle-east, showing the originals along with the nasty three (that they had made themselves) and this kicked off. How many Saudi Arabians do you think have read the originals? How many protesters do you think have seen the originals - or perhaps they are seeing what has been circulating...

Arcade Fire · 4 Feb 2006 at 01:16

cleanbluesky said:
No, its more like a cartoon was published. In fact, its SUSPICIOUSLY like a cartoon was published. If you have read the thread, you would realise that 3 of the cartoons were drawn by Muslims (yet it seems there is no anger at those Danish Muslims who did this) and that Muslims have drawn pictures of Mohammed before.

Just to get this straight - are you saying that nobody has any right to be offended by those cartoons? That everybody should realise that it was just a joke, and calm the hell down? That seems to display a certain unwillingness to understand somebody else's culture.

theleg · 4 Feb 2006 at 02:57

Well earlier in the thread, and in the SC thread, I argued in support of muslims in this matter...Ive now changed my mind as a result of the protests by british muslims....Its absolutely pathetic.

theleg · 4 Feb 2006 at 03:02

Phantom said:
In January 2005 there was a "Jesus Christ" opera which depicted Jesus as a fat black man who cursed and swore. this was aired on the bbc. it received such an uproar by the "christian" public to the extent that bbc directors received kidnapping and death threats. a lot of "christians" burnt their tv licenses in disgust and protested too...

should we all be saying.....omg the "christians" are all mad, theyre terrorists because theyre threatening us!!!

free speech should not be "free" in the sense ou can say what you want - you should at least try to keep in mind and respect what others believe in. religion is something which people take seriously. just because some people dont that shouldnt then give them the right to make fun of it surely.

Is that not a slight exaggeration? Couple of hundred elderly christian protesters at max...Calling for resignations, not death and the death of children.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4154071.stm

Do you have a link to the kidnapping and death threats story? The BBC denies it.

Craig321 · 4 Feb 2006 at 03:52

As said in a program I watched earlier. If they don't like it then they should switch the TV off or change the channel.

Visage · 4 Feb 2006 at 10:17

Given that Denmark's main exports are lager and bacon, how will a muslim boycott have any effect?

Tinders · 4 Feb 2006 at 10:53

JohnnyG said:
I'd guess that the idiots who have threatened violence & retribution couldn't believe their luck when the cartoons were published, after all, that's all they live for. I reckon they just mope about twiddling their thumbs waiting for something remotely offensive to their religion & beliefs and get all excited as soon as it appears. They're probably having a whale of a time right now, adrenaline rushing & blood pumping, better than watching footie.
I wonder if these people know the meaning of peace or could face living with it.

Its like Rent-a-Muppet had a sale on! it really is stupid, wonder how many sensible people are in the crowds, doctors,teachers,accountants, lawyers? all probabaly students or chav types, that just pray for a ruck!

singist · 4 Feb 2006 at 10:58

Some of the Muslim posters in this thread are trying to explain their position and say that the vast majority of Muslims are very devout and peace loving.

So let me get this straight: if anyone calling themself a Muslim threatens or does anything bad every other Muslim jumps up and says "they aren't real Muslims, we are a peace loving religion" ............... hey, cool! ...... but maybe it would be better to actually DO something about it.

If there really is a vast majority of resonable, civilised Muslims, I would ask them to get together and expel these radicals preaching death and violence from their mosques and disown them; they are someone's son, daughter, husband or cousin etc, so they WILL be known. I believe that true believers should also turn these people in to the police for inciting racial hatred too, but hey, lets not get carried away here.

@tif .......... AFAIK there are no verses in the Qur'an that say that pictures of Muhammed are forbidden. I'm not too sure where it says this, it may have been a command of the Prophet himself. :dunno:

**** me neither, but surely it will be in the Quran if the prophet commanded it? ****

Zain .......... Islam states no image should be drawn and that all non muslims should be treated equally and with respect as you would treat a fellow muslim, surely if a muslim treats you with respect you should do the same?

**** so, who in Islam decided then, if it isn't in the holy text? and where is it stated? ****

Zain .......... It is a very deep and offensive deed that has been done by the papers, which is probably why there isnt a simple formal letter to show that they did not like it.

**** see above; it's bad because someone somewhere says so ..... ok, let's use that as an excuse to kill then. ****

Freak boy .......... not all rules of Islam are from Quran, some are sayings of Prophet (pbuh)

**** I can't believe that any "saying or command" of the prophet is not in the Quran !! ****

Freak boy .......... we are humans, thank you very much!

**** having seen certain videos, I'm not convinced about some of your brothers. ****

One thing is true: We are always seeing pictures of Muslims with weapons crying about how unfair the world treats them and threatening death and destruction on the infidels.

Nearly every terrorist bombing around the world is claimed by some radical Muslim sect (CIA propoganda, I suspect)

If all these people are a tiny minority, there must be trillions and gazzillions of these devout peace loving Muslims out there letting their religions name be taken in vain..... what are we westerners supposed to think?

Tinders · 4 Feb 2006 at 11:05

Looks like the 'protests' are being organised by an apparently outlawed group,Hib ut tehrir according to the BBC anyway), now why are they being allowed to do this, surely if they are outlawed the authorities can do something about it?

I think Singhist raises a very interesting point, with all the crap being slung at the name of islam, is it not time for the peacefull muslims to get up and reclaim the religion and expunge the extremists from with in their midst?

GSDog · 4 Feb 2006 at 11:38

It really annoyed me when I saw them holding up posters in London saying "Britain you will pay, 7/7 on its way". Could someone please, please tell me what the hell all the British people have done? If I didnt know what happened I would have thought Britain just nuked the middle east or something!

Gilly · 4 Feb 2006 at 11:49

Tinders said:
I think Singhist raises a very interesting point, with all the crap being slung at the name of islam, is it not time for the peacefull muslims to get up and reclaim the religion and expunge the extremists from with in their midst?

I tell you what, if I was a devout follower of Islam (and lets face it, is there any other kind?) I'd be going out of my head at every stupid thing every radical muslim did. I'd have made a name for myself through my protestations against such stupid and ignorant people. And why would I have made a name for myself?

How many muslims have you personally heard of that speaks out against what is happening, rather than just saying 'thats not us as a religion, they're just a few bad apples'? We hear that comment every time something new comes along, yet no-one denounces them. No-one from their faith denounces them and expells them from the religion.

I might be able to have some respect for the religion as a whole if that began happening.

Radost · 4 Feb 2006 at 11:55

I was just thinking about all this and to be honest How absurd is that??I mean we live in a free europe, is a democraticy how many years have we spent trying to make it the way it is, we have freedom of speach and freedom to chose what we do.Now some group of extremist(im not gonna say anymore about what they are)is trying to tell us what we can and what we cannot!!What is that about?Europe has done so much for Muslim people, how many muslims live good in Germany, what about the UK, what about the Netherlands?I think they should calm down, because this is just taking the mickey now!!And they want an apology from the Government??What is that about??The government has nothing to do with it anyway, the press is free to publish whatever they like, why would the government apologise about it?

Gilly · 4 Feb 2006 at 11:57

Radost said:
-

We do live in a free world, or at least as free as is currently available, but you must remember that the western world is much more advanced than many other parts of the world.