Anti-semitic is a bit of a push, no?

TallPaul1878 · 26 Mar 2018 at 11:50

Caracus2k said:
I don't personally think Corbyn is a person of such fortitude as to be willing to 'die' for his beliefs.... For me he's one of those usual modern western socialists whoose views on the world come from the rather cosseted lifestyle we tend to have in places like the UK which is the result itself of a largely capitalist system.

What I mean is that his political career will live and die by it. I don't think he is a flip flop like plenty other politicians. I don't necessarily believe that he is an anti-capitalist either, more that his position is of "state guided capitalism".

I, myself, have a similar stance. It's not anti-capitalist or socialist to believe that certain industries, the ones required for humans to survive, are best delivered by the state. I have no problem with the nationalisation of gas, electricity, water, healthcare. Even affordable housing and farming too.

For sure though, all politicians are coddled. They live in ivory towers no matter what party they align themselves to. Going off on a tangent, I had a friend who spent a bit of time around the Socialist Worker's Party. Never had he seen so many champagne socialists before. All of them upper middle class privileged brats.

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:01

danlightbulb said:
Lots of older rich people have big noses and facial hair. Like I said, I dont associate that image with it being of a Jewish person, just of a rich toff.

Jewish people running banks isnt something i ever think about.

The whole topic is very odd to me.

What would an anti semetic person actually do to demonstrate that? Drawing a picture of soneone with a big nose doesnt count.

Its a caricature... The artist has deliberately chosen to accentuate thoose features on some of the men depicted to identify then (at least in a secular sense) as being Jewish. His quote confirms that this was his intent. I think you are rather alone in your 'I don't see Jewish' people depicted in this mural line... The artist intended for them to be depicted and even JC, on closer reflection, can see it....

“I sincerely regret that I did not look more closely at the image I was commenting on, the contents of which are deeply disturbing and antisemitic,”

Like I have said this to me is one of the sillier attempts to discredit Corbyn whoose previous actions and associations, in my opinion, already provided a wealth of material far stronger than this case.

danlightbulb · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:04

Caracus2k said:
Its a caricature... The artist has deliberately chosen to accentuate thoose features on some of the men depicted to identify then (at least in a secular sense) as being Jewish. His quote confirms that this was his intent. I think you are rather alone in your 'I don't see Jewish' people depicted in this mural line... The artist intended for them to be depicted and even JC, on closer reflection, can see it....

Like I have said this to me is one of the sillier attempts to discredit Corbyn whoose previous actions and associations, in my opinion, already provided a wealth of material far stronger than this case.

My point is that only people who are looking for the links actually care. Those are the ones who are truly anti semetic or otherwise anti some other race.

The image isnt anti semetic. Those could be any rich fat cats, even polititians who most of us are slaves to.

XeNoN89 · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:05

danlightbulb said:
My point is that only people who are looking for the links actually care. Those are the ones who are truly anti semetic or otherwise anti some other race.

Sounds like you're just trying to play down any anti antisemitism to me. Either that or you're just being arrogant

danlightbulb · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:08

XeNoN89 said:
Sounds like you're just trying to play down any anti antisemitism to me. Either that or you're just being arrogant

this is my point exactly! the people who are looking for this stuff are the real racists. I looked at the image and didnt see anything to do with Jews. Therefore clearly the stereotype has no meaning for me. a.n other looked at it and saw jews. who is the anti semetic?

XeNoN89 · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:14

danlightbulb said:
this is my point exactly! the people who are looking for this stuff are the real racists. I looked at the image and didnt see anything to do with Jews. Therefore clearly the stereotype has no meaning for me. a.n other looked at it and saw jews. who is the anti semetic?

So the Jewish people that noticed the image was antisemitic are the ones who are antisemites? Ok.

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:15

danlightbulb said:
My point is that only people who are looking for the links actually care. Those are the ones who are truly anti semetic or otherwise anti some other race.

So I am anti semitic in your eyes because I actually did some limited research on the piece to establish what the artist said about the piece and what the person subject to the controversy had to say about the piece?

Like i say I think it's an overblown case.... Had I seen the mural first hand without any other knowledge I would however have noted the Jewish caricatures it contains.

danlightbulb · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:17

XeNoN89 said:
So the Jewish people that noticed the image was antisemitic are the ones who are antisemites? Ok.

The 'image' isnt anything at all. Its the interpretation of the image that matters.

XeNoN89 · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:18

danlightbulb said:
The 'image' isnt anything at all. Its the interpretation of the image that matters.

So your interpretation of the image is correct and what the artist said doesn't matter?

Maybe it is just arrogance then.

danlightbulb · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:22

XeNoN89 said:
So your interpretation of the image is correct and what the artist said doesn't matter?

Maybe it is just arrogance then.

Correct. What the artist intended it to be doesnt matter, because we all look at it and see what interpretation we want to see.

The biggest problem with racism is people looking for excuses to showcase it. What should have happened is the council remove the mural quickly because it is graffiti. id say exactly the same if it was a Banksy.

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:26

danlightbulb said:
The 'image' isnt anything at all. Its the interpretation of the image that matters.

Following on from danlightbulb's reasoning ......

I don't see anything racist about the original (fictional) South Park flag (from the animated show going by the same name) and if you do see something racist based on your interpretation of the flag then you are the real racist!

sigma · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:28

danlightbulb said:
The 'image' isnt anything at all. Its the interpretation of the image that matters.

Interesting logic.

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:30

sigma said:
Interesting logic.

Imagine if the forums here (or anything else) tried to work on these principles.....

You could say (or at least show depictions of) the most abohherent ideas and then say the true bigots were anyone that noted this or complained!

danlightbulb · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:36

Caracus2k said:
Following on from danlightbulb's reasoning ......

I don't see anything racist about the original (fictional) South Park flag (from the animated show going by the same name) and if you do see something racist based on your interpretation of the flag then you are the real racist!

Racism is broader than persecution. It is fundamentally seeing people as different to you. Therefore, when looking at this ficticious example some people will see a black man being hanged, and some people will just see a man being hanged, until the fact he is black is pointed out.

Media attention, and 'righteous' people looking for attention help perpetuate racism, by drawing attention to these things.

Like a naughty child wanting attention, provocative imagery such as this is best ignored.

Dis86 · 26 Mar 2018 at 12:58

So nobody is upset that old white dudes are portrayed in a negative light?

Kronos · 26 Mar 2018 at 13:07

I think we should get another report from Shami Chakrabarti I sure she would welcome being made a Dame.

Chris Wilson · 26 Mar 2018 at 13:08

Dis86 said:
So nobody is upset that old white dudes are portrayed in a negative light?

We are made of sterner stuff, water off a duck's back

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 13:09

Dis86 said:
So nobody is upset that old white dudes are portrayed in a negative light?

Racist! Sexist! Humanist! Ageist!

I just saw a bunch of aracial non gender conforming entities of non descript age being depicted....

If your interpretation of the mural is that its depicts older white men (in a potentially derogatory manner) then it's you that's the bigot!

Dis86 · 26 Mar 2018 at 13:16

Caracus2k said:
Racist! Sexist! Humanist! Ageist!

I just saw a bunch of aracial non gender conforming entities of non descript age being depicted....

If your interpretation of the mural is that its depicts older white men (in a potentially derogatory manner) then it's you that's the bigot!

The older white men are depicted in exactly the same way as the 'Jewish' men. In fact I honestly couldn't tell you who is meant to be a Semite and who isn't.
If it's offensive to one it's offensive to the other.

Caracus2k · 26 Mar 2018 at 13:18

Dis86 said:
The older white men are depicted in exactly the same way as the 'Jewish' men. In fact I honestly couldn't tell you who is meant to be a Semite and who isn't.
If it's offensive to one it's offensive to the other.

In all seriousness I would suggest (going left to right of the seated individuals) that numbers 1,3 and 6 are likely caricatures of secular male Jewish identity...

The whole white men = bad thing in society thing is a rather newer invention then the Jews = bad things as well so give it a while!