Anybody here actually believe in all this Global Warming malarky?

fatiain said:
I read that this planet can easily support about 30 billion. We're not even a 1/4 way to being overpopulated.
That's 30 billion people, with 99% of people living in poverty. Realistically there's no way that the earth can comfortably support that many people. We can't even comfortably support 6.5 billion people without having most of them living like peasants. The average estimate for 'comfortable' standards of living seems to be between 2 and 5 billion people (source).

Population growth is by its nature exponential. What might be considered important is the 'doubling time' which is the time it takes for the population to double (surprisingly). The current rate of growth is between 1 and 1.5 percent per year, which gives a doubling time of approximately 50 to 70 years. So by 2075 we might expect to have 13 billion people on the planet, if growth rates remain approximately constant.

At some stage though, there is going to come a point where we physically can't support everybody on the earth, at any standard of living whatsoever. We'll be so grossly overpopulated that we wouldn't be able to feed everyone if we tried (at the moment we have enough food for 10 billion people, we're just extremely bad at distributing it). Let's say that stage is your figure of 30 billion people. When we reach that, we'll enter a period of massive population crash known as 'die-off', where famine and pestilence will be at unheard of levels, and we'll very quickly decrease to a more manageable population. There's an example in the page I linked to where 19 reindeer were introduced to an area. Their population increased to over 6,000 at which stage the area could no longer support them, and they died in droves over a very short period, until there were less than 50 remaining.

What's shocking, though, is that we'll have almost no warning of this until it happens. Even twenty years beforehand it will look like we have enough resources to go around. Consider bacteria living in a petri dish, which has enough space to support a million bacteria. Let's say they double every minute (unrealistic, but it helps for the example) and that they'll reach maximum population in 60 minutes. At 59 minutes they'll only fill up a mere half of the dish and they won't see any problem at all. It's only at about 59 1/2 minutes that they'll start to think that it's getting a bit crowded. So that's 59 1/2 minutes of perfectly happy growth, and then 30 seconds warning before they all start dieing. Scary, huh?
 
fatiain said:
I read that this planet can easily support about 30 billion. We're not even a 1/4 way to being overpopulated.

Hmm I read a lot of nonsense as well, shocking what some people write isn't it.
 
Anyone who seriously thinks that the planet is not overpopulated, or that it can "easily" (?!) sustain 30 billion people needs to have their head examined. They could also check out the video (google it or get it on p2p) named "Arithmetic, Population and Energy" by Dr Albert Bartlett. It sounds like Arcade Fire may have seen it from his post, or at least he understands the concepts it explains.
 
dirtydog said:
Anyone who seriously thinks that the planet is not overpopulated, or that it can "easily" (?!) sustain 30 billion people needs to have their head examined. They could also check out the video (google it or get it on p2p) named "Arithmetic, Population and Energy" by Dr Albert Bartlett. It sounds like Arcade Fire may have seen it from his post, or at least he understands the concepts it explains.
I didn't say I believed the planet can easily sustain 30 billion people, I said I read that.....etc
 
fatiain said:
I didn't say I believed the planet can easily sustain 30 billion people, I said I read that.....etc

And I was saying that the person who wrote it needs their head examined - not you :p Although your post did (to me) imply that you agreed with it I thought.

Anyway I hope people reading this who haven't already will seek out that video - it's something everyone should see :) I promise it will make you think. You may never think the same way about 'economic growth' again.
 
No it is not cyclic as you suppose because ice cores animal life in the ocean examined do not back up that theory. In fact anyone who states that it is cyclic has done no reading on the subject (and it is a complex subject) other than a article or two of pop science magazines or newspapers.

Only CO2 forcings can explain current warming trends, all other factors have been accounted for.

Climate change is a consensus science and the consensus is that it is real and at no time in the last 850 000 years have CO2 levels been as high as they are now.
 
conundrum said:
No it is not cyclic as you suppose because ice cores animal life in the ocean examined do not back up that theory. In fact anyone who states that it is cyclic has done no reading on the subject (and it is a complex subject) other than a article or two of pop science magazines or newspapers.

Only CO2 forcings can explain current warming trends, all other factors have been accounted for.

Climate change is a consensus science and the consensus is that it is real and at no time in the last 850 000 years have CO2 levels been as high as they are now.

The consensus can be wrong, both about what is happening or about how to deal with it. Just because the majority believe it doesn't necessarily make them correct.
 
Sorry Dirtydog but as far as the complexity of climate science goes and it is a multi discipline discipline then it requires consensus. This is a complex science and no one discipline has all of the answers, only a consensus works in this field.

Climate change detractors tend to be lone figures now whereas they were once large scale bodies, over the past decade the detractors are noe mainly Government officials who doctor the work due to its poltitical sensitivity (reported recently via a NASA block on the truth) or authors like Michael Crichton and his book "state of fear" which is complete scientific garbage at its best.
 
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DMPOOLE i completely agree with you! I think it's just the whole nature of the poles flipping which last happened 700000 years ago and it's supposed to happen every 500000 years, so we'r overdue for it.

But i don't beleive in global warming as it's been touted by the media...or scientists.
 
conundrum said:
Sorry Dirtydog but as far as the complexity of climate science goes and it is a multi discipline discipline then it requires consensus. This is a complex science and no one discipline has all of the answers, only a consensus works in this field.

Climate change detractors tend to be lone figures now whereas they were once large scale bodies, over the past decade the detractors are noe mainly Government officials who doctor the work due to its poltitical sensitivity (reported recently via a NASA block on the truth) or authors like Michael Crichton and his book "state of fear" which is complete scientific garbage at its best.

Eh? How does what you just said disprove what I said. Just because the majority believe something and the naysayers are marginalised, ignored and ridiculed in the media and by their peers in the scientific community, doesn't necessarily mean they are wrong. The consensus used to be that the earth was flat.
 
@ conundrum:

That's what they said about the earth being flat, the soundbarrier being unbreachable. Hell, most of the scientists on the Manhattan project were 100% convinced that the nuclear bomb they were working on was going to ignite the atmosphere on fire......
 
Mickey_D said:
Hell, most of the scientists on the Manhattan project were 100% convinced that the nuclear bomb they were working on was going to ignite the atmosphere on fire......
Urban legend, Teller raised the possibility during the summer of 1942 and Bethe et al worked out it was impossible.

Though as a piece of ghoulish humour it lasted unil the Trinity tests, with Fermi taking bets regarding the power of the test including whether the the atmosphere would "burn", or just New Mexico would be destroyed, or it would fizzle.
 
The earth once thought as being flat is not a argument that you can use, it is in no way related as an argument for or against human made climate change.

I had understaken a lot of reading on whether human made climate change is real and I conclude that it is based on real science whereas when you read up on the detractors they use biased or blinkered science and cherry pick certain results. All of this has been spectacuarly witnessed recently by Michael Crichtons recent book "State of Fear" and the response to it by the climate science community which was overwhelming and showed that Crichton had used blinkered science at best and downrigth wrong and erroneous arguments at worst.
 
conundrum said:
or authors like Michael Crichton and his book "state of fear" which is complete scientific garbage at its best.

I'd have to disagree with you on this point, Michael Crichton may not be a scientist and the conclusions in his book my not be completly correct, but it is far from garbage. He at least uses some what credible data and sources, as compared to the scare-mongering of the media. His book I dont thing is ment to discredit GW reaserching or theories, rather what is the problem at the moment and what needs to be done to find out what really is going on, such as blind researching grants. It is acuratly named because todays society is a "state of fear" because thats what sells. The media depicts GW as fact, rather than theory which it is, and depicts the worst possible senario, quite frankly because thats what sells. And this in turn leads the public to believing in somthing ,without a doubt, that is not nessicarily true or 100% proven.
 
Even if mankind continues the way they are Earth wil continue. Mankind may not but the Earth will.

I am not a climatologist, but I concur with the cycles theory. The planet goes cold -> hot -> cold. The planet warms up too much and the Gulf Stream stops working. BANG! Cold again.

The planet is far more complex than we even begin to undertand and all this media hype and best-guess science isn't helping...
 
Oh the usual erroneous arguments about climate scientists having a vested interest in continuing their research grants, yawn. Science is peer reviewed and cross discipine, stuff like that is not likely, well far more likely than authors and journalists who can spew what they like whilst scientists cannot.

Crichton has been shown to be wrong, wrong, wrong I am afraid. If you can unserstand it read this....

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=74
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=76

Realclimate is a web site run by real climate scientists from the Goddard institute at NASA and as such it is very objective and sciency which is why I saw "if you can understand it" as it can be very sciency and difficult to decipher.
 
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conundrum said:
, stuff like that is not likely, well far more likely than authors and journalists who can spew what they like whilst scientists cannot.

I agree with you that his book is far from scientificly accurate, or the conclusions that he came to are no more proven than that of GW, and are not supported by definited reasearch. But as I said before, in my opinion, that is not the main point of the novel. Rather to inject a bit of objective thinking and questioning which is nessicary in today's society, rather than believe without question that which is spewed by the media, which is often supported by little or no evedince and is touted (sp?) by the media as definite proof of GW.
 
conundrum said:
Only CO2 forcings can explain current warming trends, all other factors have been accounted for.
Erm thats simply not true - all other effects cannot be accounted for because we simply don't know all of the effects of the near infinite number of factors that could contribute. If I may quote my own previous post:
Pickers said:
As far as I am concerened, there is no doubt in my mind that global warming is occuring, but it can be attributed to BOTH human and natural effects. The real question is which effect dominates the trend in rising temperature? Unfortunatly there is the inclination of scientists and polititions to look for the one answer, when infact it can be the sum of many subtle effects.
Above only counts CO2 and the role of cosmic flux due to solar variation. There is evidence to suggest that solar UV emissions that increase during high activity disassociate particles and aerosols in the atmosphere that can also increase cloud production, equally methane from livestock add more GHGs to the atmosphere. Its not until all therories are considered together that a wider picture/model can be deduced for the Earth's fate.

conundrum said:
Climate change is a consensus science and the consensus is that it is real and at no time in the last 850 000 years have CO2 levels been as high as they are now.
Although quite possibly true, you have to consider the fact that vostok (primarily) ice core samples contain a reading for CO2 that can span a long error period (maybe a thousand years at least). Our measurements today are real time, and so its really impossible to compare data covering a long error period with data that can be made minute by minute.
In addition, if CO2 levels are indeed the highest in 850,000 years, then surely the fact that 125,000 years ago the temperature was ~3.5 degrees warmer than today, implies that the connection between CO2 and earth temperature is not tightly constrained.
source: J.R Petite - Climate change of the past 400,000 years
 
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