Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[alex24]

Still no real conclusion on the relevance of the protection limit then, which makes it hard to make any judgements without actually finding data from a specific study into this. Even then, results between different locations and other factors are likely to vary.

The Belkin warranty is meaningless unless we know the nature of common surges and whether they are above the limits of the apparatus or not. What they state there is that if the product fails to meet the advertised specs, they'll allow you to claim. The real question is whether the advertised specs are anything more than near-zero protection from common surges, which may mean these are dealt with by the device rather than a protector, or by another mechanism as in the linked IEEE paper above. Saying they should be isn't enough in this case, I'm after a scientific answer as stated in the OP.

Nothing personal at all, I'm just trying to get to the real centre of the argument and the questions we need to answer to reach a valid conclusion. I appreciate your input non the less.

 

[PanchoVilla]

Well my take on this whole thing is, wait for it..... don't use a cheap surge protector. Use a quality one, or none - even if you have a cheap one lying about. My reasoning is, that I lost two adaptors simultaneously (modem, router) on the same cheapo surge protector - on two separate occasions. And looking one of the images in the above threads, I noticed the end sockets failed just like where my adaptors were used.

Also, a while back my son was using a mains usb charger and somehow tripped the electricity in the house. How can a small thing do that?!?!

Following on from that, I needed to buy a charger for my ipod touch and decided to buy a belkin usb charger for about 4 times the price of cheaper chargers on the bay. Can't risk fire and all that, but I can't help but think there's an element of paranoia creeping in.

Lastly, when I moved into my house years back, the main fuse connecting the main fuse box was loose and caused a milisecond break in the supply frequently. The washing machine, lamps etc. would stop, but my PC, alarm clocks, TV etc. would be fine and be able to handle the spike. This was before the adaptor failures on the surge protector.

 

[alex24]

No offence intended at all, but like most of us here, your opinion is based on your own experiences and not facts. It was the intention of this thread that the actual science behind these devices would be discussed, but people with real informed opinions are few and far between it seems, and there is much debate, largely resulting from people like you and me, who just have their individual observations to judge from, with no proof or basis in science.

For your last point, they're not surges, but brief cuts, sometimes described as brownouts if not a complete loss, but sag. Some appliances tolerances to this will be better than others.

 

[PanchoVilla]

No offence taken - thanks for not calling 'junk science' lol.

I understand that cuts are not the same as surges. Agree that there are few informed discussions on this topic, and I searched a lot when I had my issue.

I also understand that my adaptor failures were not due to surges. But I can only conclude that the failures were due to a cheap surge protector. I never had the issue when I had them connected to a normal 4-way adapator, only when I placed them on a new 6-way surge protected adaptor.

This thread might have intended to explain the science behind the devices, but it is also important to come to an informed conclusion. I thought to state my experience as I think it is important - is it better to use a normal 4-way adaptor, than a 'cheap' surge protected 4-way adaptor?

I think it is, having seen those pictures and reports above where surge protected adaptors failed and caused fires.

The adaptors that replaced the supplier provided ones for my router/modem were also supplier spec ones. And for these to blow TWICE on me SIMUTANEOUSLY, there has to be a reason which I conclude was the cheap surge protector.

 

[Phil2008]

My stuff is infront of 2 surge protectors, my belkin ups, and the ups is plugged into this........ I think thats mine anyway

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=UP-047-BE&groupid=702&catid=55&subcat=

 

[alex24]

No offence taken - thanks for not calling 'junk science' lol.

I understand that cuts are not the same as surges. Agree that there are few informed discussions on this topic, and I searched a lot when I had my issue.

I also understand that my adaptor failures were not due to surges. But I can only conclude that the failures were due to a cheap surge protector. I never had the issue when I had them connected to a normal 4-way adapator, only when I placed them on a new 6-way surge protected adaptor.

This thread might have intended to explain the science behind the devices, but it is also important to come to an informed conclusion. I thought to state my experience as I think it is important - is it better to use a normal 4-way adaptor, than a 'cheap' surge protected 4-way adaptor?

I think it is, having seen those pictures and reports above where surge protected adaptors failed and caused fires.

The adaptors that replaced the supplier provided ones for my router/modem were also supplier spec ones. And for these to blow TWICE on me SIMUTANEOUSLY, there has to be a reason which I conclude was the cheap surge protector.

As with anything in this industry, you more often than not get what you pay for (relatively), so getting a cheap unit that develops a problem or came with a defect is not unreasonable. Normal 4-gang extensions are a somewhat more simple design, so the chances of them failing are reduced, particularly if you're not buying bargain basement stuff. Personally, I've had two belkin 6-port surge protectors (not cheap ones!) fail on me in the last two years. That's with different equipment on them and in different locations (not even in the same county!). So if you want a comment on experiences, mine have been bad, even with the more expensive plug in protectors. I firmly believe that there isn't a massive difference in the quality of components used throughout the belkin range, having owned and used numerous units and knowing what the markups are on them (shocking by the way!). Non-branded stuff may well be worse, though there's actually no guarantee of that.

You say that we need to come to an informed conclusion, and imply that this is not achieved by an understanding of the science of the devices. my argument is that the science behind them should define how and why they're constructed, and hence their performance. The science must also question whether the components in such devices perform in accordance with this, experiences are just biased potential evidence for a hypothesis that hasn't even been made yet due to lack of knowledge. My point is that an informed conclusion is knowing the facts and science of these devices.

 

[PanchoVilla]

Wow. Hope you didn't lose too much stuff. I think if I had your experience, it would have put me off protection altogether and I'd switch the main fuse off every night.

Anyway, my point to your earlier thread was that it's fine to discuss the science behind these things, but the natural progression of that is to hope to arrive at an informed conclusion. Just knowing the facts and science of these devices is not a conclusion in itself unless your goal was to only be informed of them. Saying that, it's entirely plausible to have/want different conclusion/goals from this thread.

 

[alex24]

Indeed.

I didn't lose anything, they both just refused to turn on after a year or so of use. The reason I'm not sure of. I was considering sending the units back for RMA, but the hoops you have to jump through just for that, combined with postage cost make it a waste of time and money.

 

[JasonM]

Thread resurrection but i'll tell you about an expereince yesterday.

I have a Tacima Hi-Fi surge/noise filter protector pluged into PC, into this I have a regular trip plug (the type you would use with electric hedge cutters if working in gargen for example). I do this because I read here the MOV on surge protectors can catch fire.

Anyway, with the heat i've been running an electric fan, this is pluged into the socket next to where trip plug is connected. I turned the fan on yesterday, and noticed a surge sound on my active computer speakers (this is after the surge protector). With the computer off, I flipped the fan a few times, then the trip socket activated and turned off all power.

Whats worse I repeated with the audio jacks disconnected from active speakers, and most of the speaker surge sound disappeared. This means that the surge is getting into soundcard.

It would appear to me that the surge protector / noise filter is doing nothing. The household trip socket does eventually cut power.

Then I got another surge protector, a £10 job from wickes, and put it in-line with the RRP £50 noise filtering one, same surge sound sound getting into the speakers. It would appear neither of these products are preventing the surge. The noise filtering surge protector is only a few months old.

 

[alex24]

Thanks for sharing your experience. It would seem to agree with a lot of what has been suggested in this thread, but understanding why that is happening is still beyond my understanding. It's clearly a complicated issue.

 

[westom]

Then I got another surge protector, a £10 job from wickes, and put it in-line with the RRP £50 noise filtering one, same surge sound sound getting into the speakers. It would appear neither of these products are preventing the surge. The noise filtering surge protector is only a few months old.

First, noise is not a surge. Your protectors do nothing - remains inert - until 230 volts exceed 500 volts. Your noise is tens of volts.

Second, break open the protector. The AC plug connects directly to AC receptacles. There is nothing between. Plug the audio directly into a wall receptacle. Connect the power strip to another receptacle. You have not changed the electric circuit. The protector is doing the exact same protection - circuit is unchanged.

Third, surge protection and noise solutions are simple issues. View the surge protector numbers. That noise filter could not be closer to zero.

How to install a noise filter. Tie knots in the power wire. That is also a noise filter. Does it do anything useful? Of course not. But now you can claim that power cord is a filter.

That surge protector has you making subjective claims. Does 'virtually' no noise filtering. Does not protect from destructive surges. And it did not lie. Specification numbers say it. But the manufacturer knows your eyes glaze over when numbers arrive. A typical consumer makes scams easy by using subjective reasoning. By entertaining hearsay and urban myths. By ignoring the numbers.

What you discovered is right there in its spec numbers - including no surge protection from typically destructive surges. Noise and surges are two completely different anomalies - require different solutions.

 

[PanchoVilla]

westom, I read your posts with interest but let's come to the bottom line to aid my/our future purchases...

true or false:

a) a 'normal' surge protector does little to protect you compared to a standard 4 way adaptor.
b) it is not advisable to use cheap 4 way adaptors.
c) it is not advisable to use cheap surge protectors at all due to heat issues and fire risks.

 

[arknor]

ive been using "cheap" 4 way adapters for around 10 years infact i think its the same 4 way adapter i had 10 years ago.

none of my pc have had issue, in england i dont think we really need the surge protection anyway our power isnt to bad its not like america where in certain parts a storm comes and everyone turns off the power

 

[westom]

a) a 'normal' surge protector does little to protect you compared to a standard 4 way adaptor.

I do not know what a 4 way adaptor is. However, if it does effective surge protection, then you have numbers from its numeric spec sheets. Numbers that list protection from each type of surge. Where are those numbers? How does it divert hundreds of thousands of joules? NIST says what any effective protector does:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

How does a four way adaptor divert massive energy short (ie 'less than 3 meters') to single point earth ground? And do that in microseconds? Where are specifications that exist if it can do that? Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Numeric specs define it if it exists.

 

[westom]

none of my pc have had issue, in england i dont think we really need the surge protection anyway our power isnt to bad its not like america where in certain parts a storm comes and everyone turns off the power

Turning off power does nothing to protect hardware. How do millimeters inside a switch stop what three kilometers of sky could not. Furthermore, no human is fast enough or reliable enough to provide effective protection. Or do you always leave the furnace, clocks, dishwasher, dimmer switches, etc disconnected to protect them?

America has a higher surge frequency - typically one destructive surge every seven years. UK should have no surge damage because the frequency (and energy content) of surges is less AND because a 'whole house' protector is so inexpensive. About 1 quid per protected appliance.

 

[FatRakoon]

I think what we need to do, is look at what devices actualy get damaged due to surges.

When we had the storm the other year, the only damage that I suffered, was

1 - My router.
2 - The LAN port on my Motherboard that was next to the router

Now, the Motherboard itself was perfectly fine and a Lan Card cured the Lan Port issue and a spare router got me back onto the internet straight away.

Now, going from teh router is an Ehternet cable to my switch on that goes on to all my LAN PCs

At the time of the storm, I had the main PC, my Server ( on the switch ) and I was also sorting out one of my kids PC ( Also on the switch )

The only damage being the router and the Motherboard then... Out of everythign in the house, only those 2?

Now, this means that the actual surge must have come through the telephone cable and not the A/C surely?

Being as the Router and the afected PC is downstarirs the electricity was clearly taking the shortest route and therefore the upstairs stuff would never be touched.

My telephones were unaffected too!

Anyway, given all of this, I feel that maybe the only thing that I need to actually protect is the Modem / Router and so perhaps simply unplugging that alone would be all thats needed to be safe?

 

[westom]

Now, this means that the actual surge must have come through the telephone cable and not the A/C surely?
Being as the Router and the afected PC is downstarirs the electricity was clearly taking the shortest route and therefore the upstairs stuff would never be touched.

Does not matter where something is in a house. For example, one brochure shows a power strip protector earthing a surge 8000 volts destructively through a second floor TV elsewhere in the house. That was, electrically, a shortest path to earth.

A surge might be earthed by a power strip protector through a computer's motherboard. Incoming on AC mains, through protector, through motherboard, and out to earth via a network port or phone line. Then maybe to earth via some other phone line appliance. It is electricity which means that current is everywhere in that path, simultaneously. Flowing through everything before something in that path fails.

Surge through a motherboard was incoming to memory boards. But no outgoing path. Therefore no current passes through (to damage) memory. To have damage, both an incoming and outgoing path must exist.

A surge was either incoming or outgoing via a phone line. So what was the other ‘always required’ path? First answer: what was the path to earth? Many times phone lines connect to earth. Communication devices easily damaged by a surge incoming on AC mains and outgoing via phone lines. Most common path for incoming surges is AC electric. You only know the surge had one path into the router and another path out apparently via a phone line.

No effective protection exists once a surge is inside a building. Today it took out a router. Tomorrow, an RCD or the furnace. Or clock radios, dimmer switches, or washing machine. This time the surge was small. Next time it might be larger - taking out many more devices.

First, damage is directly traceable to human failure; permitting a surge to enter. Damage due to no effective (earthed) protection. Second, damage was outgoing to earth via a router. That failed LAN port says the surge also passed through your computer. Third, irrelevant is anything powered on or off. Fourth, all that damage was unnecessary. A lesson learned so that surge damage need not happen again.

 

[PanchoVilla]

I do not know what a 4 way adaptor is. However, if it does effective surge protection, then you have numbers from its numeric spec sheets. Numbers that list protection from each type of surge. Where are those numbers? How does it divert hundreds of thousands of joules? NIST says what any effective protector does:
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.

How does a four way adaptor divert massive energy short (ie 'less than 3 meters') to single point earth ground? And do that in microseconds? Where are specifications that exist if it can do that? Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Numeric specs define it if it exists.

I meant a 4 way adaptor to be the 4 way power strips. So, from your post above, a cheap surge protector does nothing/little to protect.

I'll probably be relying on quality 4-way strip adaptors from now on (having had issues with cheaper surge protectors).

 

[alex24]

A 'quality' 4 way power strip won't do much more either going by that post. I've bought 'quality' ones and they've ended up causing more problems than they solve. You also have to bear in mind they're no use at all if everything linked to your machine isn't going through it, such as network, aerial, peripherals etc. It doesn't seem to be as much of a problem in the UK anyway, but a whole house protector that covers the incoming services (electricity, phone) would be the best bet to redirect any energy coming into the system to earth without going through any of your kit.

My interpretation now is that there is really little point to power strip surge protectors. I live in a block of flats and they're protected on the incoming supply, so surges here just aren't an issue as far as I can see. Don't waste your money. A UPS may be useful if you suffer regular power cuts or brownouts however, but only as a battery backup, not as protection against surges.

 

[FatRakoon]

Does not matter

...etc.etc...

A lesson learned so that surge damage need not happen again.

Yes indeed.