Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[westom]

or, more likely, you haven't the foggiest idea what a friendly joke actually is.

Apparently not.

 

[alex24]

Let's keep it on topic guys.

Westom, can you show us some real surge protector specs and demonstrate why they're insufficient? It needs to be clearly and succinctly spelt out for most people to understand the concepts here.

If anyone is reading this thread and has an informed opinion on why they believe surge protection is necessary, and can back it up with facts based on real science, I'd really appreciate your input. If not one thing, this subject is a minefield of misdirection.

 

[chief barker]

I got rid of mine because of this,

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18110825&highlight=username_chief+barker

 

[shahpor]

Power off (to hardware) is exactly same when power is removed. For example, shutdown, someone yanking the power cord, power cut off by a wall switch, or power removed the utility are exactly same power off to hardware. Yours is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. You saw something. Did not learn how electronics work. Then automatically converted wild speculation into a fact.

Power off is not a surge. That also should be obvious. Surges are high voltage. Power off is low voltage. Another reason why your conclusion is junk science reasoning.

For example, they left their computer always on. When it was finally powered down, it would not boot. So they also used junk science. They also said power off is harmful. I fixed that supply by finding and replacing the only defective part. A pullup resistor that is always powered when the computer is on. But whose only function is to bootstrap the power supply controller during power on. Due to too many hours of operation, that pullup resistor failed. Many months later when they powered off, the defect resistor meant their computer would not power back on. So they used junk science reasoning. Used only observation to ‘know’ something.

Whereas they used junk science, I used principles taught in junior high science to identify the only reason for failure. A manufacturing defect that was apparent years later because they left the computer on 24/7.

Power off did not cause your damage. Other reasons could explain it. But power off did not cause damage AND power cycling does not cause surges. Conclusions only from observation are, by definition, junk science reasoning. Unexpected power off never damaged minimally sufficient hardware.

You like the phrase 'junk science', don't you?

And I did not say merely turning the power off caused a spike, but that tripping a circuit breaker can cause one.

By your reckoning, what actually happened was that my CPU, motherboard, graphics card and HD were all already failing and were just waiting for my PC to turn off to strike!

 

[MikeHunt79]

I'm no electrical engineer, so can someone explain the difference between a surge protector and a fuse?

 

[benk]

Yes, theyare worth it. you have to ask yourself the question: -

Is my data worth an extra couple of quid. If it is, then buy one.

 

[PhillyDee]

I'm no electrical engineer, so can someone explain the difference between a surge protector and a fuse?

Surge Protectors are much much faster! A fuse has to heat up to break.

 

[Randomface74]

I've lost an unprotected PC to a surge before. So now I buy Belkin surge protectors for everything. The day they fail to protect my stuff from a surge is the day I stop buying them.

 

[westom]

I'm no electrical engineer, so can someone explain the difference between a surge protector and a fuse?

A surge protector does not conduct current except during a rare event when voltage becomes significantly excessive (ie 230 volts becomes more than 600 volts).

Fuse is a device that conducts current constantly until current (not voltage) becomes excessive.

Purpose of a surge protector is to respond to the rare event within nanoseconds by acting like a fast closing switch. Fuse responds very slowly - tens of milliseconds - by acting like a slowly opening switch.

No fuse is a surge protector. A fuse blows after appliance damage occurs so that the damage does not result in a fire. A fuse is for human safety. A protector is for transistor safety.

Circuit breakers operate like fuses. And circuit breakers do not create surges. A circuit breaker, like a fuse, is a switch that opens when current (not voltage) is excessive. Like a fuse, the open circuit breaker causes voltage to go from normal down to zero. Neither circuit breakers nor fuse cause voltage to increase significantly excessive.

 

[mrthingyx]

No idea.

A few years ago, I had my PC connected to a single socket without a surge protector and the PSU randomly blew up. Thinking it was just a PSU failure, I had that replaced. And its replacement blew up after a day of running off the same socket.

I bought a Belkin POS from the Purple Shirt Team (because I didn't want to wait for delivery) and it put an end to the problem.

I couldn't tell you if this was a result of the surge protector doing anything (as it hasn't tripped/broken and I don't think it does power streaming), or simply the local fluctations in the grid normalising, but...

£20 for a surge protector which may protect my computer, or £0 for nothing that protects nothing and cost me £100 for a new PSU?

 

[alex24]

£20 for a surge protector which may protect my computer, or £0 for nothing that protects nothing and cost me £100 for a new PSU?

I don't disagree, and this has always been my thinking, but this point has been covered, and it's not the answer I'm looking for; it's not based on any science, just assumptions.

I think I should write to the mythbusters, nobody else can be bothered to test this!

 

[djohn]

I have one just incase, as power surges are not covered by home insurance and so I'm definately glad to have one!

Stelly

Sorry for long post but I think it's worth a read.

Lovely sunny day in August three [3] years back, not a cloud in the sky and no warning of what was to come.

Awful bang from my tower unit and loss of picture. TV did not go off but changed from sky channel to normal channel. All electric clocks stopped and zeroed themselves time-wise.

PC would not boot back up but everything else worked when reset or restarted.

I was running all my PC equipment through a UPS plus four separate 6 gang surge protectors. All sockets were in use except for 4 spare ones used for charging cameras/Mobile phone and few other bits and bobs.

Phoned up manufacture of UPS [Belkin] and they were not happy as soon as I said I was using the surge protectors, should have used UPS on its own! Didn't bother to follow that up any further at that point a I could see it would most likely end up in small claims court.

Phoned Manufactures of surge protectors , Must have had close to a million pounds in cover if they gave independent cover for each block (all same make) ].

Conditions laid down over phone came no where near to what I had read on package when buying and I had not kept the packaging so that nullified the claim even though I had the receipts.

Phoned Electricity board and they confirmed they had a major power surge in three [3] post codes, mine and two [2] adjoining. Their insurance does not cover power surges, most other things but not power surges?

Phoned my insurance cover, [Contents only] which is Direct Line. they could not have been nicer if they had tried. Cut a longer story short as they wanted to send me a voucher to go and collect new system from Local branch of large well known store.

I explained it was a custom built machine some 4 years old but insurance company offer new for old, they asked me for name of local company who had built my system and I assume checked them out via their website and phone numbers. they requested the shop to go ahead an build new system to my specification and send invoice direct to them.

Insurance company phoned me back to let me know everything had been agreed and to pop in to shop to discuss new build. How long did this take? All done on the same day within 4 to 5 hours and new system was delivered to my home 3 days later. No forms to fill in, no signatures required, everything done via phone and email and no increase in premiums. I had only been with the company for 4 years and it was my first and only claim to date.

I don't know if UPS and or surge protectors work for other people but they did not for me and my contents insurance, [Direct Line] where outstanding. Does anyone know if anyone has ever been payed out by any company that sells UPS or surge protectors if they have failed to do their intended job?

 

[JasonM]

Weston, do any of the mains gand surge protectors give any protection? I'm refering to the ones that are plugged into the wall.

Providing the house earth is good, and the cable length is pritty short (< 1 meter it appears), then surely there must be some giving more protection compared to nothing at all. If so can you give model numbers.

 

[westom]

Weston, do any of the mains gand surge protectors give any protection? I'm refering to the ones that are plugged into the wall.

Again, wall receptacle safety ground is not earth ground. I believe you read thatpreviously.

Essential for earthing is a short (ie 'less than 3 meter') connection to single point ground. No sharp wire bends. No splices. Ground wire separated from other non-ground wires. Earth ground connection not inside metallic conduit. Each sentence is a complete reason why wall receptacle cannot provide earthing. Your receptacle ground would probably violate every requirement.

A short connection so that energy dissipates outside the building. Only item that provides protection - that dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules - is earthing. No earthing means energy must dissipate destructivley inside the building. Means plug-in protectors may even provide that surge current more potentially destructive paths.

Another requirement to make protection effective. Protector should be distant from electronics. And as close as possible the the earth ground that every incoming utility wire (cable TV, telephone, satellite dish, etc) also connects to.

This summarized what was described previously with numbers. Either a protector connects the typically destructive surge 'less than 3 meters' to single point ground. Or it is a plug-in protector - a rumored complete solution - that does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.

So that earth ground can provide protection, every wire inside every cable must make a short connection to earth before entering the building. Cable TV makes that connection with a hard wire - no protector required. Telephone and AC electric are earthed via a 'whole house' protector. To be a low impedance connection, the above installation rules (in paragraph two) apply.

 

[westom]

Does anyone know if anyone has ever been payed out by any company that sells UPS or surge protectors if they have failed to do their intended job?

Read the specs. Notice the so many exemptions attached the the warranty so that it also will never be honored. Your story is what everyone should expect. Read the numeric specifications. And read the so many fine print exemptions always in those big quid warranties.

The Belkin, et al did exactly what its numeric specs said it will do.

 

[JasonM]

I was thinking, if surge protector adaptors don't help, then why do most higher end PSU's have surge protection built in?

 

[PanchoVilla]

On a cheap surge protected 6 way adaptor I had two adaptors at the end: one for the modem and one for the router. Both these adaptors blew on me at the same time, on two different occasions. The rest of the appliances on the 6 way adaptor were fine (pc, speakers, lamp etc.).

I wasn't sure what to make of it, so I bought an expensive 30 quidish belkin about 2 years ago - and so far no further blowouts.

 

[alex24]

That's in no way proof that they work though.

This topic is still yet to reach a balanced conclusion based on evidence. Jury's still out, though westom's thoughts do make a lot of sense, they are not backed up with any research. In fact, most 'research' by companies obviously suggests they are necessary so that they sell their product.

 

[westom]

I was thinking, if surge protector adaptors don't help, then why do most higher end PSU's have surge protection built in?

Any protection that would work on a power cord is already inside the appliance. Accomplished with better and more sophisticated designs. A power strip protector adds nothing useful, can sometimes compromise protection already inside appliances, does not claim to protect from typically destructive type of surges, and may create these scary pictures (fire).

Reasons even explained by a fire marshal:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://*******.com/3x73ol
where **** are t i n y u r l and is entitled "Surge Protector Fires"
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

How to make protection inside all appliances more effective? Your concern is the rare and destructive surge that can overwhelm protection inside appliances. Only an earthed (ie 'whole house') protector averts that damage.

Meanwhile an IEEE paper even discusses damage created by plug-in (point of use) protectors. Dr Martzloff’s very first conclusion:
> Conclusion:
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable
> difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge
> protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[alex24]

Do you have a link/reference for that paper westom?