Are surge protectors a waste of money?

[westom]

Do you have a link/reference for that paper westom?

It is a 1994 paper written by Dr Martloff (and someone else) that discusses the Upside-Down house. My guess is IEEE access necessary to obtain it.

Research on protectors (like research on how fluorescent lamps work) will be difficult because these concepts were well defined over 50 years ago. Long before plug-in protector nonsense was being pushed, earthed 'whole house' type protectors were the well proven and always required solution to surges. And remain so in facilities that must not suffer damage (telco switching centers, nuclear hardened facilities, munitions dumps, etc).

Plug-in protector company research papers are nothing more than sales propaganda. They are not doing research. Those who do this stuff professionally well understand and recommend the highly regarded Polyphaser app notes. Polyphaser has long been regarded (before PCs existed) as a solution to direct lightning strikes without damage.

What a protector does - connect energy harmlessly to earth – was well understood long before transistors were even invented.

 

[alex24]

Thanks, I'll see if I can get any more info on that.

 

[Pottsey]

westom is talking a lot of rubbish in saying UPS don't provide surge protection. I know for a 100% fact my UPS has saved my against surges. The best UPS I have is a Belkin 1200VA UPS among other cheaper ones and they has saved my PC and equipment a number of times now from surges.

I have lost a lot of equipment to surges but the stuff behind the UPS's always survives. If they had near zero protection my equipment would be dead and they wouldn't offer a £200,000 connected equipment warranty & data recovery warranty.

Sure perhaps not all UPS's offer surge protection but the decent ones do and it works. I would never go without a UPS again.

Now those cheap £5 surge protector plugs. They have never worked for me.

For someone who hates junk science you seem to be using a fair bit Westom. Some of your examples are nothing but junk science. Post 94 was very bad with lots of false information. What rubbish is that about shutdown is the same as the power cord being being yanked out or using a wall switch. Also Unexpected power off can and will damage some types of hardware. Hard disks being one such bit of equipment that can get damaged by unexpected shutdowns. Why don't you keep cutting power off to your PC while a non SSD hard disks is writing data. See how long that drive lasts.

Using an example of a faulty resistor on a 24/7 turned on PC is junk science at its best when explaining to someone how their PC that is turned off, perhaps daily was not damaged by power cut or a surge when the power came back on. Give an example that's not related to the main problem. Don't give any other reasons. Then say "Power off did not cause your damage"

EDIT:
Cycling on and off of home appliances can cause surges more so when its has motors or compressors . Some research even says 90% ofsurges are created inside buildings by power cycling. I know I have witnessed surges created by power cycling.

 

[westom]

westom is talking a lot of rubbish in saying UPS don't provide surge protection. I know for a 100% fact my UPS has saved my against surges. The best UPS I have is a Belkin 1200VA UPS among other cheaper ones and they has saved my PC and equipment a number of times now from surges.

Appliances on those UPSes have such good internal protection as to save themselves. Why did a UPS do what the manufacturer does not even claim? Basic middle school science. To know a fact, you must first possess fundamental facts to build a valid hypothesis. No valid hypotheses defines junk science reasoning. Even the manufacturer does not claim what you have assumed. Nothing says that UPS does protection. Without a valid hypothesis, then anything you *know* from observation is classic junk science.

Second, if a UPS did so much, then how many times have you replaced electronics in the furnace, dishwasher, and dimmer switches? According to your logic, those appliances are protected by invisible UPSes? How much does an invisible UPS cost?

Well, you used observation to *know*. Therefore you can explain what protected stove electronics and digital clocks. Miracles?

Third. Do surges damage everything? Of course not. So painfully obvious. The surge only damaged appliances that make best connections to earth - with or without a UPS. IOW some appliances acted as surge protectors because you did not install effective protectors. Effective protection (for tens or 100 times less money) means nothing in the building was damaged. If you had damage, then why did you spend so much money for something that 1) does not claims that protection and that 2) does not protect everything? Why spend so much money to obtain so much less?

Fourth, researchers do not say "90% of surges are created inside buildings by power cycling." Again, urban myths to witness "surges created by power cycling." If an appliance generates an 800 volt surge, then that appliance destroys what is closest to the surge - itself. Since household appliances are creating surges, then how many times a day do you replace electronic timer switches, digital clocks, and the microwave? You said these surges exist. So how many times a day do you troop to hardware stores to replace damaged appliances?

Oh. All were protected by invisible UPSes? So again, you *know* only using observation. You saw an invisible UPS protecting portable phone base stations that would otherwise be destroyed? Only those educated by retail sales *know* appliances creates 800 volt surges multiple times every day.

So how often every day does central air create a surge and destroy itself? Never? So what protected the answering machine from surges created all day by the refrigerator? Another invisible UPS? Claims from Pottsey without any numbers. He could not even say how large that appliance generated surge is because a sales brochure did not provide that number. No number is how so many are educated by sales brochures. A majority of us only believe what we are told to believe rather than first learn even simple electrical concepts. The most naive among us never post the always required numbers.

That UPS manufacturer does not claim what Pottsey only assumed. If that protection existed, then Pottsey posted each relevant spec number - digit by digit - as an informed poster does. Even that UPS manufacturer does not numerically define protection from each type of surge - in numeric specifications. Near zero joules in that UPS is somehow 100% surge protection? Only when a poster believes what he is ordered to believe AND ignores numbers.

BTW, post numeric specifications for those invisible UPSes. I always love to learn about the newest 'high tech' products. According to Pottsey, invisible UPSes are some of the best protectors in the world.

 

[alex24]

Let's try to keep away from personal attacks guys, this is a serious discussion, I'm sure you can do better than that.

Pottsey, if you have an opinion you must be able to back it up with facts and science. State your sources and reasoning for your view, and note that empirical observations are not necessarily proof. I have had surge protectors on my PCs when surges have hit, the PCs have not been damaged, I cannot assume that they did their job as the opinion is based on no science. That is why I asked this question in the first place, my intention was not for everyone to post their experiences with surge protectors, but to find those informed on the subject who are willing to explain their viewpoints with facts and figures, appropriately explained with a source.

 

[Pottsey]

westom said "Even the manufacturer does not claim what you have assumed. Nothing says that UPS does protection. Without a valid hypothesis, then anything you *know* from observation is classic junk science."
The UPS manufacturer do claim and offer a warranty against it failing to protect against a surge. http://www.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=153777 very clearly says surge protection. Not only does the UPS say it has protection but the UPS itself gives you a chart of voltage levels so you can see surges.


westom said "gain, urban myths to witness "surges created by power cycling." If an appliance generates an 800 volt surge, then that appliance destroys what is closest to the surge - itself."
That would pretty much match up with what I have seen at work time and time again. power cycling created a surge that blow up the device.



westom said " Well, you used observation to *know*. Therefore you can explain what protected stove electronics and digital clocks. Miracles?"
Yes I observer the voltage input and frequency input on the volt monitoring graphs to see the surges and standard day flux in voltage.

Nothing protected stove electronics and digital clocks as they were not protected. The only protected and none damaged stuff was behind the UPS's.



westom said "If you had damage, then why did you spend so much money for something that 1) does not claims that protection and that 2) does not protect everything? Why spend so much money to obtain so much less?"
I spent money as A, it does claim to give protection, B it has given protection to the expensive items, like I said I have more than 1 UPS. Plus I get a lot of brown outs and blackouts. So UPS's are the most cost effective solution. I cannot find any better more cost effective solution.



westom said "Oh. All were protected by invisible UPSes? So again, you *know* only using observation."
I like to borrow equipment from the sciences lab at work for testing. At the lab I have a fiber converter box that's very sensitive to surges. The only fibre box's to survive are the ones behind UPS's. You keep saying know using observation. Yeah will observation of volt input to UPS and volt monitoring devices with graphs are pretty solid evidence.



observation "Never? So what protected the answering machine from surges created all day by the refrigerator? Another invisible UPS?"
Refrigerators don't tend to create big surges while on. As you know most equipment including answering machines has a limited amount of surge resistance. Low surges will not harm equipment normally. Refrigerator's can create a big surge when power cycled a lot or turned on and that can blow up answering machines. But one does not tend to turn a refrigerator's on and off daily as it needs to be on 24/7.
Small changes in voltage are not normally a problem. Its only bigger surges and big changes to voltage that blow equipment.




westom said "Claims from Pottsey without any numbers"
You know you are making claims without any numbers. You are using junk science and posting 1 faulty UPS as an example of why no UPS works. That's junk science. I didn't record the numbers as I didn't see a need. A surge happed more then once. Equipment behind the UPS survived every time the equipment without a UPS died. The volt graphs at the time showed a surge. The UPS says it has surge protection and provide me with a warranty against surge protection.



westom said "BTW, post numeric specifications for those invisible UPSes"
Tell you what when you stop using junk science and start posting facts with evidence I will do the same. Why should I have to do all the work to prove your lies wrong. You're the one saying the manufacturer are lying, you're the one using junk science to prove your point. Show real science that manufacturer are lying.



westom said "Second, if a UPS did so much, then how many times have you replaced electronics in the furnace, dishwasher, and dimmer switches? According to your logic, those appliances are protected by invisible UPSes? How much does an invisible UPS cost?"
Let me quote you for a second "Third. Do surges damage everything? Of course not.!" my logic does not say they are protected by invisible UPS. They are not protected that's why they sometimes get damaged and need replaced. Yes the dishwasher has been replaced. Can you please stop using junk science.

 

[Pottsey]

westom said "That UPS manufacturer does not claim what Pottsey only assumed."
I just found the specs. You are very wrong again.
• Total Energy absorption - 420 Joules
• Maximum Surge / Spike - 6,500 Amps / 6000 Volts
• AVR response time <220ms
• AVR SmartBoost increases 10% of input voltage if input is 187~213VAC
• AVR Voltage Detection tolerance is +/- 6VAC
• Transfer to battery 187~264 VAC +/- 6%
• Output voltage on battery 230V +/- 5%

So yes it does protect against surges and yes it has worked for me. Sure it might not handle a direct lightening strike but it works against lightening strikes that are not direct on your house which is normally what happens in a storm and all the other common causes of surges.

Considering 100% of surges I have ever had both at home and work are inside the UPS surge specs I am happy and it is giving me protection. Telling me and others that UPS give no surge protection is very bad advice and pretty much lying.

How many people have none direct lightening strikes surges? Lots. How many people have direct lightening strikes surges very few. So for most people UPS's are enough protection.



EDIT:
alexhull24 said "Source? Can you define 'smooth out'? In the previous thread it was stated that UPS provide a square wave output with peaks often at much higher voltages than mains."
It's true sometimes UPS will peak a little above the mains. But if there is a large peak above normal from the mains the UPS lowers the volts.

With my UPS if the voltage drops or rise's between a set amount the UPS kicks and smoothes out the volts. See the below link which is a graph from my UPS. As the volts drops below safe levels the UPS smoothes out the volts. Red is the UPS output volts. Blue is the mains input. It does the same if the volts get to high it lowers the output volts.
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8278/voltc.jpg

 

[PanchoVilla]

A.....
Reasons even explained by a fire marshal:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
.......

This is the first image (with the last two sockets showing more heat damage) that probably explains why I had two adaptors fail simultaneously TWICE on the same argos 6 way surge protected adaptor. I've been using a quality belking one since and no reoccurrence.

I'll continue to use the belkin, but I think I'll stop using the cheap 6 way adaptor that is currently in use for the xbox. I think I'll rely on the standard 4 way adaptors commonly found.

 

[JasonM]

I have just found these two pdfs, one from NIST, and other IEEE. IEEE is more technical.

The NIST pdf seperates surges into two types, external and switching from other applications.

Both documents cover plug in surge protectors. Look at the IEEE section 2.3.2 Lead Length.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf

 

[edscdk]

You like the phrase 'junk science', don't you?

And I did not say merely turning the power off caused a spike, but that tripping a circuit breaker can cause one.

By your reckoning, what actually happened was that my CPU, motherboard, graphics card and HD were all already failing and were just waiting for my PC to turn off to strike!

computer stuff is likley to fail when powered on.....

mutiple failures in a PC would be unlikley, but when we power our server rooms off and back on there is always stuff that breaks on the power up... failed servers and drives etc.. a SAN that had been on for 5 years lost 6 drives, a controller board and 2 monitoring things... lucky it still kept working another few years on and we would have lost everything

 

[edscdk]

No idea.

A few years ago, I had my PC connected to a single socket without a surge protector and the PSU randomly blew up. Thinking it was just a PSU failure, I had that replaced. And its replacement blew up after a day of running off the same socket.

I bought a Belkin POS from the Purple Shirt Team (because I didn't want to wait for delivery) and it put an end to the problem.

I couldn't tell you if this was a result of the surge protector doing anything (as it hasn't tripped/broken and I don't think it does power streaming), or simply the local fluctations in the grid normalising, but...

£20 for a surge protector which may protect my computer, or £0 for nothing that protects nothing and cost me £100 for a new PSU?

I have a £20 pill that will make you imortal, you jsut need to take one a week

 

[PanchoVilla]

I have a £20 pill that will make you imortal, you jsut need to take one a week

email in trust.

 

[alex24]

I have just found these two pdfs, one from NIST, and other IEEE. IEEE is more technical.

The NIST pdf seperates surges into two types, external and switching from other applications.

Both documents cover plug in surge protectors. Look at the IEEE section 2.3.2 Lead Length.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf

http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf

Thanks very much for these links, these (particularly the IEEE document) cover most of my questions.

The Nist doc is slightly off, and obviously a little tainted by marketing bias, but generally seems correct as far as I can make sense of it.

The IEEE document there explains the issue very well, and even tells you exactly how you should set up equipment and use surge protectors.

The general message from these sources is that no single surge protector is capable of effectively protecting your devices in all situations. Protection (i.e. grounding) near the incoming utilities and proper 'bonding' seems essential in the event of lightning strikes, be that direct or indirect. You need protection on incoming AC supply and utility lines into the house that can withstand and dissipate large amounts of energy. You need protection on any devices that may suffer surges that come into the house from the outside, such as telephone cables. The aforementioned protection requires good planning in house construction and protection devices at utility entrances, which can possibly be installed by power companies etc. These are the 'whole house' protectors previously mentioned.

In addition to this, protection using 'plug in' protectors (the sort this thread concerns) will probably not protect any equipment unless there are already the above measures in place in the event of a large energy surge or strike (the effects of which can be felt up to 1.6km away if a lightning strike!). It depends on how much energy is in the system that needs to be dissipated, and in the event of strikes or even moderate to large surges on AC power, plug in protectors won't help. Same applies for a UPS as surge protection technology in them is essentially the same, they just also provide a battery backup.

Used in conjunction with whole house protectors, plug in protectors may be useful in filtering out constant overvoltages (not high, e.g. 1.5x mains) and small surges that the whole house protectors do not respond to, as they only respond at levels that may be above potentially damaging electronics inside the house (though will provide protection above this for large surges).

It is recommended that you use a plug in surge protector with every device that is of high value and potentially sensitive to small surges, though many devices have this functionality built in to an extent. I need to confirm the difference in numbers between the maximum amount of energy a device can dissipate and the max a plug in protector can. There may only be a small difference. However, the surge protector is easily compromised, and possibly worsens the problem if you are connecting your equipment outwards to other grounds or sources of surges, such as telephone, TV etc. If you use a plug in protector, it's important that all connections to the devices you wish to protect are going through the protector. The devices sit in a 'bubble' of which the only physical route out is via the protector. Therefore, a plug in surge strip with your PC would be inadequate if you're connecting RJ45 to a router, an aerial or telephone line or any thing else connected to something outside the 'bubble'. Also if you're not using 'whole house' protection, it will not protect against any significant surge. They also have to correlate and work well with your whole house protection, or they may simply conduct surges to your equipment and worsen the problem.

So are plug in surge protectors a waste of money? Not necessarily, but without other measures in place they're not doing an awful lot to protect your hardware. Don't think that the warranty will save you if your house is incorrectly grounded or open to surges, as it won't. Only failure of the protector itself will result in a legitimate claim, and the plug in protectors scope is very limited.

It was also noted in the paper that a lot of emphasis put on joule ratings is meaningless without context, and may be totally irrelevant depending on the design of the protector.

 

[westom]

westom said "That UPS manufacturer does not claim what Pottsey only assumed."
I just found the specs. You are very wrong again.
• Total Energy absorption - 420 Joules
• Maximum Surge / Spike - 6,500 Amps / 6000 Volts

Good. Only two numbers make any reference to surge protection are quoted above. For example, surges are done in microseconds. What numbers do your spec discuss? Response in hundreds of milliseconds. Obviously numbers that do not discuss surge protectcion. You would have known that if first learning basic electrical concepts. So you posted many numbers that obviously do nothing for surge protection. And that is my point. Those who recommend a UPS for surge protection do not even have simplest electrical knowledge. Now let's move on to the numbers that discuss surges.

Destructive surges (that can overwhelm protection inside appliances) are hundreds of thousands of joules. How does that tivial 420 joules make thousands of joules disappear? It doesn't. Where does that thousands of joules dissiapte? Those up to 6500 amps hunt for earth destructively via nearby applianes.

Why do surges too small to harm appliances also destroy ineffective plug-in protector?
1) A near zero surge protector gets recommended by the naive. A near zero 420 joules means it can be hyped by a sale brochures as 100% protection. 420 joules is near zero protection.
2) If the protector fails on a tiny (irrelevant) surge (because its protector circuit is undersized), then the naive will recommend it to friends.

An effective protector means nobody knows a surge existed. But that means the most naive cannot recommend it. Protector did not fail. Therefore (the naive reason) it did nothing.

An effective protector earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. How does that UPS do it? It doesn't - as numbers provided by Pottsey demonstrate.

That UPS protector circuit may have completely disconnected long ago because it is so grossly undersized. And that UPS still does its only function - provide power. Meanwhile Pottsey can only assume (speculation) a completely disconnected protector circuit is doing protection. Invisible UPSes that are protecting other undamage appliances are also protecting that UPS. Must be because numbers provided by Pottsey (4500 joules and no earth ground) is near zero protection.

If 6500 amps are incoming, then 6500 amps are also outgoing into nearby appliances. It is called electricity. Every amp incoming is also one amp outgoing. Otherwise no electricity exists.

What do 6000 volts and 6500 amps measure? Cited by JasonM is an IEEE brochure that shows where voltage and current goes. Page 42 Fig 8. A protector earthed that current 8000 volts destructively through a TV across the room or in some other room. Damage to the TV because that protector (or UPS) must conduct 6500 amps somewhere. Once inside a building, that energy hunts for earth destructively via appliance - with or without that UPS.

Page 42 Figure 8: TV is 8000 volts destroyed because the protector (or UPS) is too close to appliances and too far from earth ground. A failure directly tracedable to no properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Energy must dissipate somewhere. Protection is always about where that energy dissipates. 6500 amps into a UPS is also outgoing from that UPS into nearby appliances. Pottsey never knew what those specs are reporting. He simply reiterated propanganda from retail brochures. Now that we have numbers, his UPS protector may even fail during tiny (non-destructive) surges.

Pottsey's numbers report *near zero* surge protection. Only just enough above zero so that Pottsey will believe it is 100% rrotection. He had no idea what those numbers claim. Protection only from a type of surge that does not seek earth ground destuctively via appliances.

All electronics must work normally even when incandescent bulbs diim to 50% intensity. How often does that happen? That is when a UPS is useful. Only hearsay and complete technical naivity would recommend a *near zero* protector circuit as 100% surge protection.

UPS provides temporary (and 'dirty') power during blackouts so that data can be saved. Only purpose of a plug-in UPS - temporary power. What is necessary to protect that UPS? One properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Pottsey - you were honest enough to provide the numbers. Now learn what those numbers say. Near zero surge protection. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. That UPS has no short connection to earth. A protector circuit is only as effective as its earth ground. Ineffective protectors (ie UPS) must avoid all dicussion about earthing to protect those profit margins. So that the naive will declare near zero protection as 100% protection.

 

[westom]

Both documents cover plug in surge protectors. Look at the IEEE section 2.3.2 Lead Length.

Paragraph is brochure page 23, Adobe page 32. Wire impedance is why wall receptacles are safety ground; not earth ground.

Let's put that discussion into relevant terms. A wall receptacle may connect 17 meters of wire to the breaker box (including 2 meter power cord). Whereas that wire is less than 0.2 ohms resistance. That same wire is maybe 120 ohms impedance to a surge.

Let's say a trivial 100 amp surge is at the power strip. 100 amps that 120 ohms is something less than 12,000 volts. Will that tiny 100 amp surge obtain earth ground via the wall receptacle safety ground? Of course not. That is the point of page 42 figure 8 in the same brochure. A protector too far from earth ground earthed that surge 8000 volts destructively through some nearby appliance (TV2). What kind of protection is that? What we engineers also saw when doing the autopsy.

To make a low impedance connection, an earth ground connection must be short (ie 'less than 3 meters'). No sharp wire bends. No splices. Not inside metallic conduit. Separated from other non-ground wires. Every one says why a plug-in protector cannot be earthed. And why surges inside a building will hunt for earth via appliances - ie page 42 figure 8.

Critical is for every incoming wire to connect short to the only (single point) earth ground.

Telephone cable has two wires. Both must be earthed. However if either is connected directly, then no phone service. That is the only purpose of a protector. To make that connection to earth. Coax (cable TV, satellite dish) needs no protector. Superior protection is a wire connected directly to earth ground - no protector required.

Only component always required in every protection layer - single point earth ground. Every protection layer is only defined by that only and always required component. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. No earth ground means energy dissipates elsewhere – in the grossly undersized protector or inside appliances (page 42 figure 8). A protector is only as effective as its earth ground and connections to earth. Impedance in section 2.3.2 is why only effective protectors make a short connection to earth. And why ineffective protectors do not discuss earthing or claim surge protection in their numeric specs.

Essential to surge protection - upgrade the earthing - a lowest impedance connection to single point earth ground. What every plug-in protector will not discuss to protect obscene profit margins.

Another IEEE Standard defines the effective solution. IEEE Green Book entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding':
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which
> will, if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not
> positive, providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one
> stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

So yes, a ‘whole house’ protector is not complete protection. How much additional protection will plug-in protectors provide? 0.2%? Must you really spend tens or 100 times more money for that additional protection? Yes, plug-in protectors can provide additional protection. And then we add the perspective of numbers to learn what plug-in protector manufacturers also forgot to mention. So much more money for less than 1% additional protection? For most homeowners, money is better spent upgrading the single point earth ground. Why? Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Paragraph 2.3.2 says every meter shorter that connection to earth means even better protection.

 

[Phil2008]

westom is talking a lot of rubbish in saying UPS don't provide surge protection. I know for a 100% fact my UPS has saved my against surges. The best UPS I have is a Belkin 1200VA UPS among other cheaper ones and they has saved my PC and equipment a number of times now from surges.

I bought a belkin 1200VA UPS 3yrs ago, cos we had a dodgy trip switch and our power use to go off 2-3 times a day untill we got it fix a yr later I would say my pc would be knackered if it wasnt for the ups, and it never once failed to keep my pc powered up.

Even tho the power is sorted now, I still have the ups connected, cos its always monitoring the power, ie on windy days the ups does its thing and keeps kicking in when power drops below or over exceeds a certain voltage level.


Apparently my ups can handle and kill a 39,000,000 watt surge, I even emailed belkin about it, cos it sounded a tad ott, Belkin said:

"Your figures are correct yes the UPS should be alright during a bad storm in the area, if there would be a direct lightning strike on your house then it might be okay but that depands on the strike itself but for that you are covered."

I guess it can only handle that for a 10th of a second tho

 

[Pottsey]

westom said "So you posted many numbers that obviously do nothing for surge protection. And that is my point. Those who recommend a UPS for surge protection do not even have simplest electrical knowledge. Now let's move on to the numbers that discuss surges."
The device very clearly works and the numbers are very clearly within protection levels needed. So you are very wrong. Stop using junk science and ignoring facts. Stop telling me I have near zero protection. Effectively I have 100% protection as the chance of a direct lightening strike in this location is extremely rare. If you don't live in a high risk lightening strike area UPS's give you all the protection you need normally.

That facts are I get lots of surges. My UPS's has so far given me 100% protection year after year both at work and at home. Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. All you do is use speculation and junk science. If I have near zero protection then how has my UPS protected my equipment against surges time and time again?



westom said "An effective protector earths direct lightning strikes and remains functional. How does that UPS do it? It doesn't - as numbers provided by Pottsey demonstrate."
A effective protector does not need to earth a direct lighting strike. As direct lighting strikes are extremely rare which very few people ever witness or have on their home (depending on location of course). An effective protector does need to stop indirect lighting strikes and the UPS does that. Due to where I live I am extremely unlikely to get a direct lighting strike. But an indirect lighting strike is not that rare.




westom said "That UPS protector circuit may have completely disconnected long ago because it is so grossly undersized. And that UPS still does its only function - provide power. Meanwhile Pottsey can only assume (speculation) a completely disconnected protector circuit is doing protection.."
The only person assuming and useing speculation is you. Stop using junk science. I am not using speculation, I am using facts. You on the other hand are using a lot of speculation. So far most of your speculation has been 100% wrong.

You know full well I am not assuming as I explain in my old post. I record data in my house. See http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/8278/voltc.jpg I am recording my voltage on the mains . That data is recorded every day. That is not assuming or speculation. I can see surges, brown outs and black outs, it's all recorded. I am not assuming there is a surge or brown out. Its recorded in hard data in the graph. I record all the time. Every single surge recorded has been well within the UPS specs to stop. The UPS protector circuit has not disconnected in fact I had a power cut yesterday and small surge as the power came back on. The UPS still worked.

That and when the UPS protector circuit fails the bypass light goes red and the speakers beep. So stop your silly speculation and stop your silly junk science. If the protector circuit has completely disconnected I would know.



westom said "Pottsey's numbers report *near zero* surge protection. Only just enough above zero so that Pottsey will believe it is 100% rrotection. He had no idea what those numbers claim. Protection only from a type of surge that does not seek earth ground destuctively via appliances."
By near zero protection do you by some chance mean the UPS protects against 99% of common surges and internal house surges? As that's a fact. I effectively have 100% protection as a direct lighting strike is very unlikely to happen.

I did not claim 100% protection. I said direct lighting strikes are too much for the UPS. Although Belkin say 39,000,000 watt surge from a direct lighting strike might be prevented but I bet you need a new UPS after that. Saying that in reality I have protection against 100% of surges that have happened in this area.

Like I said before. The facts are I have 100% protection against all surges that have happened in my area. Without the UPS I would have far more damage equipment. That is not near zero protection. That is 100% protection so far. The UPS has not failed to protect against a surge so far. So you saying the UPS is to slow to give protections means you are wrong.



westom said " Pottsey - you were honest enough to provide the numbers. Now learn what those numbers say. Near zero surge protection. Protection is always about where energy dissipates."
The numbers say I have effectively have 100% protection apart from direct lighting strikes.
Prove that most surges are above those numbers. In my experience and research 99% of surges are below those numbers so I have effectively have 100% protection ( Excluding direct lighting strikes and other very rare events). Those numbers do not say near zero protection. Those numbers say I have 100% protection against common surges. 100% of surges that I have had are within those numbers. Numbers that are high enough to damage equipment without protection but low enough that the UPS stops damage.

If I turn a fridge on and it creates a surge it's not going to be above the UPS numbers but it will be high enough to damage none protected stuff. If there is a power cut and power thuds back on there can be a surge but it will not be above the UPS numbers.

How much equipment have I lost with UPS's Zero.
How much equipment have I lost without UPS's far too much to surges.

So stop telling me I have near zero protection.
Prove I have near zero surge protection. You cannot as you know its not true.

EDIT: westom something else your not taking into account. If there is a very rare high powered surge. The UPS takes the blow and gets destroyed leaving the equipment behind the UPS to survive or take a much reduced hit from the surge.

 

[Bulldog14]

I have worked as an RMA/Support tech at 3 MB makers for the last 10 years and have seen/handled literally 1000's of boards in various states of damage, so perhaps I can add a manufacturers standpoint to the discussion. One thing I have noted is that like Weston has mentioned people often jump to conclusions and use junk science to reach these conclusions. Throughout this thread numerous people have stated "I'm glad I had a surge protector as it saved me.......". My basic question to those individuals is how are they determining that surge was to blame for a given failure? How do they know for sure? Electronic components can fail for many reasons, not the least of which is component degradement that can lead to the most drastic damage.

Before testing a given motherboard it is standard RMA practice to test the capacity of the CPU socket to provide proper voltage using a "dummy" CPU before inserting the real thing. If voltage regulators have blown or degraded you wouldn't want to fry a good CPU. This is a real concern as over the course of servicing the same type of boards you can see solid patterns emerging. I have observed that over the course of servicing boards that one could note a steady degradement of mosfets ability to regulate voltage. For example during the socket A days CPU voltage regulation was in general handled by mosfets that could operate in a range from 2.5v to 5v. When measured using a volt meter most provided the correct voltage as defined by the BIOS. Say 2.7v to create a baseline. However some boards would start to waver and lose the ability to regulate properly and end up pumping 3.5v to the CPU for example.

After having countless amounts of these "comprimised" boards die on the operating table in the most spectacular ways (Basically total component burnout complete with smoke and sparks) it has been made adundantly clear to me that the bulk of electronic damage occurs due the inability of components to regulate voltage. This of course begs the question why does a component lose the ability to regulate voltage anyways? Given the increasing amount of amps that I have seen being pumped thru various PC components over the years and the heat issues that obviously result I am a firm believer in heat issues being the primary culprit for component failure. In other words the amount of heat a given component must endure is directly proportional to it's life span.

This is not to say that surges don't play a role, but I firmly believe that what many people think is a surge problem is simply a component failure within a primary component like a PSU. If the mosfets start to degrade in a PSU it can lead to a drastic failure that can take the entire system with it.

The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with using surge protectors as they can help, but what people think is a surge problem is often not.

MB Support Tech

 

[alex24]

Thanks for your comments Bulldog14.

Pottsey, I thought that mains voltage was a sine wave (potential versus time), why does your graph show a constant potential? Perhaps it's not a true representation? What is its smallest recording interval?

Your conclusions that your UPS has protected your PC are based on the fact that it hasn't failed so far. What I'm interested to know is, when you get a surge (as you claim you can record?), are non-protected devices in your house affected? It may be the case that in the event of real surges your house's ground is providing a quicker route to earth, which would be consistent with what was recommended in the IEEE document.

You also say that your UPS protects against 99% of common house surges as a fact - how do you know this? I'm a bit skeptical as your conclusions aren't actually based on real numbers and just your personal experience, which, as Bulldog14 says, is easy to jump to wrong conclusions.

Claification is needed - how much energy do common surges provide?

 

[Pottsey]

It's just the scale I had. I zoomed out a bit so you could see how bad the volt drop was. If you zoom in the volt out and input do wave up and down.

As for none protected device I have lost a lot of equipment mostly PSU's.


alexhull24 said "You also say that your UPS protects against 99% of common house surges as a fact - how do you know this?"
I admit I am not an expert and you might be better off speaking to a true expert. As far as I am aware all common house surges are under 6,500 Amps / 6000 Volts. Surges caused by power cycling or other common internal house surges should be under the protection limit for the UPS. " a 3-year warranty that provides protection against damage to connected equipment. If equipment is properly connected to a Belkin UPS and it is damaged by a power surge, Belkin will repair or replace that equipment up" up to a cost of $300k. Belkin would not offer that if it had near zero protection and they also pay for the recovery of data from the damaged hard drives as well if the UPS fails.



alexhull24 said " Claification is needed - how much energy do common surges provide?cv"
I don't know what the officially numbers are. I only know I have never had large surges in the 1000's of volts. I dont see how normal home items could create massive volts surges.