Argentina withdraws from 2016 pact with UK over the Falklands, wants to restart negotiations regarding ownership.

[ianh]

I've no idea what your talking about. The Harriers did attack the airport with bombs and cluster. The GR harrier entire purpose is to drop bombs on things.

Yeap, the Sea Harriers (which are multi-role) were the first to attack Stanley airfield two days before any Vulcan raids and long before the GR3's arrived near the end.

The BlackBuck raids while amazing airmanship were of dubious value.

They burnt an incredible amount of fuel and money to achieve one limited if stunningly impressive success. The follow ups to the initial run achieved next to nothing beyond demonstrating our ability to project non nuclear force to the Argentine mainland if required. It is an endless debate, was blackbuck necessary? Were the harriers used effectively?

I'd disagree with "dubious value" as the response from the Argentinian Air Force (forced by the Junta post BlackBuck) was to withdraw its fast-jet fleet from Stanley back to the mainland. So whilst the actual military effect on Stanley's runway from these raids was virtually meaningless, the perceived threat to the mainland that the Vulcans brought had a huge strategic effect overall, way surpassing the simple military value of the very few bombs which hit Stanleys runway.

So strategically the BlackBuck raids were a huge success whilst tactically the Sea Harriers did far more damage in an attempt to shutdown Stanley.

However I also like the debate, so many what-ifs to go around!

 

[OspreyO]

Yeap, the Sea Harriers (which are multi-role) were the first to attack Stanley airfield two days before any Vulcan raids and long before the GR3's arrived near the end.





I'd disagree with "dubious value" as the response from the Argentinian Air Force (forced by the Junta post BlackBuck) was to withdraw its fast-jet fleet from Stanley back to the mainland. So whilst the actual military effect on Stanley's runway from these raids was virtually meaningless, the perceived threat to the mainland that the Vulcans brought had a huge strategic effect overall, way surpassing the simple military value of the very few bombs which hit Stanleys runway.

So strategically the BlackBuck raids were a huge success whilst tactically the Sea Harriers did far more damage in an attempt to shutdown Stanley.

However I also like the debate, so many what-ifs to go around!

A raid that took I dunno 20 aircraft and a oil tanker load of fuel to clip the runway with one bomb and miss with the other 20 isn't going to scare anyone. Didn't even deny the use of the runway. Runways can be fixed easily.

Not least an airforce that was willing to fly at wavetop height and drop bombs at point blank range against an armada of ships and missiles.

Imagine a single vulcan with no air cover going up against mirages on the mainland. Not even Walter Mitty would claim that as viable.

The point is the harrier is designed to carry bombs. It could hit the runways far more effectively than a Vulcan.

 

[OspreyO]

Argentina couldn't stage an invasion of the Falklands in 2023 by the way, their military is in such a poor shape. I think a single F-35 could shoot down the entire Argentine airforce, and that's not an exaggeration. They have less than 10 operational fighter aircraft, I doubt they have any pilots with combat experience or flying any significant hours. They're no longer any threat whatsoever.

Exactly

Argentina’s president throws cold water on fighter jet program

The president’s statement follows the completed inspection and assessment by an Air Force team of a batch of secondhand F-16s offered by Denmark.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Dis86]

A raid that took I dunno 20 aircraft and a oil tanker load of fuel to clip the runway with one bomb and miss with the other 20 isn't going to scare anyone. Didn't even deny the use of the runway. Runways can be fixed easily.

Not least an airforce that was willing to fly at wavetop height and drop bombs at point blank range against an armada of ships and missiles.

Imagine a single vulcan with no air cover going up against mirages on the mainland. Not even Walter Mitty would claim that as viable.

The point is the harrier is designed to carry bombs. It could hit the runways far more effectively than a Vulcan.

But it did scare them. They withdrew their aircraft as a result.

 

[OspreyO]

But it did scare them. They withdrew their aircraft as a result.

Which fast jets did it withdraw?

 

[Dis86]

Which fast jets did it withdraw?

Mirage IIIEA.

 

[Hades]

Maybe the UK response should be to film another Top Gear episode in Argentina

 

[Roar87]

But it did scare them. They withdrew their aircraft as a result.

Also HMS Conqueror put their entire Navy in port after sinking the Belgrano

 

[Maximum Triceratops]

Has "Sabre rattling" being mentioned in this thread yet?

 

[OspreyO]

Mirage IIIEA.

I can find no evidence they operated mirages from Stanley or deployed from it. The runway wasn't long enough for fast jets and there were no other associated facilities required to operate from there. They only brought steel matting which wasn't suitable for fast jets and made to attempt to extend the run way to facilitate them.

If they flew in a couple to test at minimal weights maybe but I can find nothing to confirm that. Can you.

 

[adidan]

Also HMS Conqueror put their entire Navy in port after sinking the Belgrano

I always found it oddly fascinating the Belgrano survived Pearl Harbour as the USS Phoenix.

 

[Dis86]

I can find no evidence they operated mirages from Stanley or deployed from it. The runway wasn't long enough for fast jets and there were no other associated facilities required to operate from there. They only brought steel matting which wasn't suitable for fast jets and made to attempt to extend the run way to facilitate them.

If they flew in a couple to test at minimal weights maybe but I can find nothing to confirm that. Can you.

Operation Black Buck

During the 1982 Falklands War, Operations Black Buck 1 to Black Buck 7 were a series of seven extremely long-range ground attack missions by Royal Air Force Vulcan bombers of the RAF Waddington Wing, comprising aircraft from 44 Squadron, 50 Squadron, 101 Squadron planned against Argentine...

military-history.fandom.com

There you go.

 

[OspreyO]

Has "Sabre rattling" being mentioned in this thread yet?

I think you just did. But no one noticed.

 

[200sols]

Ironically I think that what the Iron lady used it for..

The iron lady wasn't the one who invaded, so no.

 

[OspreyO]

Operation Black Buck

During the 1982 Falklands War, Operations Black Buck 1 to Black Buck 7 were a series of seven extremely long-range ground attack missions by Royal Air Force Vulcan bombers of the RAF Waddington Wing, comprising aircraft from 44 Squadron, 50 Squadron, 101 Squadron planned against Argentine...

military-history.fandom.com

There you go.

Yeah lots of places give the same vague reference but no details of them actually operating from there. How could they if the runway is too short.

 

[OspreyO]

The iron lady wasn't the one who invaded, so no.

Did you expect her to land with Paras or something.

 

[OspreyO]

I always found it oddly fascinating the Belgrano survived Pearl Harbour as the USS Phoenix.

Never understood why they would deploy a ship that was so unprotected from modern threats. I guess they thought they were in no danger outside the exclusion zone.

 

[I_M_Weasel]

Never understood why they would deploy a ship that was so unprotected from modern threats. I guess they thought they were in no danger outside the exclusion zone.

It was much better armoured than anything Britain had and the RN wasn't particularly well protected against modern threats like sea skimming missiles, only sea wolf was could really provide reliable low level air defence and very few ships had that. It was escorted by destroyers that should have been covering the submarine threat - it was a perfectly valid unit to use.

 

[OspreyO]

It was much better armoured than anything Britain had and the RN wasn't particularly well protected against modern threats like sea skimming missiles, only sea wolf was could really provide reliable low level air defence and very few ships had that. It was escorted by destroyers that should have been covering the submarine threat - it was a perfectly valid unit to use.

UK has some of the best attack subs in the world. The argies had little defense against that. There was no hope a ex WWII cruiser was going to get in range of the UK fleet.

Everything else is irrelevant in that scenario.

 

[I_M_Weasel]

UK has some of the best attack subs in the world. The argies had little defense against that. There was no hope a ex WWII cruiser was going to get in range of the UK fleet.

Everything else is irrelevant in that scenario.

I completly agree - my only point was that there was nothing wrong with deploying Belgrano