Arsenal FC - A complete shambles. What needs to change? *Please read OP before posting*

Status
Not open for further replies.
Doogles said:
Players are not good enough, needs another striker, fullback a couple of Centerbacks, holding midfielder and hold onto Ozil/Sanchez. Wenger out could be the way forward but he also hasn't had the tools to get them above the top 4 spots, it annoys me when people blame Wenger alone, it isn't all on him.
Click to expand...

You realise he controls who are scouts are, who we choose to buy, who we choose to keep and where we spend our money? As for the rest, we have a wage bill not far off Chelsea/Utd/City in general. This year looks like it's about 110mil wage bill for Spurs, 190ish for Arsenal, ~200 for Chelsea, 220mil for Utd. Utd were closer to us but unsurprisingly a few years of buying heavily means a lot of players on bigger money.

Arsenal have the tools, Wenger chooses not to spend, we have around 200mil cash in the bank, we've spent a fair amount in recent years and some of our lack of cash comes from not making it to later stages of the CL, not being competitive enough to get equal level sponsorship deals, etc.

If Wenger didn't have the tools then how are Spurs second right now and how did Leicester win last year? We have literally 3 times the revenue, wage bill and cash available to spend as Leicester yet lost to them by 10 freaking points. To say we don't have the tools is laughable.

As for Ozil, we should get shot, he's goes missing in big games yet wants a massive pay increase from an already large wage. Those kinds of wages spent on a guy who doesn't show up in the big games is how Arsenal are the team they are. Sanchez, very good player but still very much over rated, he's had so many poor games this year and the majority of his goals have come against really weak teams. He's also been poor in the bigger games but it gets overlooked because he's the attacking player who gets most of the ball and does the least badly by far in the big games.

I'd happily keep Sanchez even on increased wages, but not as a central striker as he basically sucks in that role. Ozil should absolutely go, he will never be good value for money, he's never going to get better, he's at an age where it's basically only downhill and he already isn't good enough for the wage he has. Cash in on him this summer for someone who believes it's Arsenal holding him back rather than just himself and then we can laugh as we spend say 30mil we get for him on a younger hungrier player with the right mentality while he goes to wherever he goes and people question his continued disappearances in the bigger games.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Wenger changed, not Kroenke, not the board's management style, not the finances available to the manager(negatively, that is, the amount Wenger can spend has pretty much tripled at this point and Wenger spends that). Rather than link to articles about what Kroenke has done to other clubs and how other clubs fans hate him... why not actually say specifically what he's done wrong at Arsenal, because pointing to someone else hating him for something he did elsewhere is absolutely not proof that he's doing the same things with Arsenal.
Click to expand...

Specifically I don't think the tone has been set from the top that mediocre performance will no longer be accepted. If the rumored contract extension is still on the table that says it all for me. Kroenke has been practically invisible since he took over at Arsenal, and has made very few statements to the press - the one that sticks in my mind was that he wouldn't have become involved in Arsenal if his goal was to win championships. To me he seems happy with constant Top 4 finishes, and has no desire to drive the club forward to achieve more than this.
 
CliffyG said:
It absolutely has and I really disagree with that kind of stuff when you should be supporting the team. That atmosphere is caused by year after year of rinse repeat seasons though with no sign of improvement or change, the atmosphere is now just exacerbating it to the point that I think his position has become untenable.
Click to expand...
In regards to the poor atmosphere in the emirates. Part of that is to do with lots of seats being owned by sponsors and other corporations.

I've been to about 15+ games so far and half of them I've been for free thanks to the client I work for. What's funny is that out of all my work mates that go to the games. I'm the only arsenal fan. So imagine that most of the people who sit on corporation seats are not even arsenal fans.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Really? The end of the season is when it gets really busy. The tough months when you are involved in europe come when you have carling/fa cup games and sometimes replays throw off the schedule then extra euro games late in the season, this results in a bunch of rescheduled games happening. Arsenal haven't been in that situation for some time, we don't get past Feb in europe.

At any stage Wenger can choose to prioritise the league and hasn't done so one year yet.

The atmosphere hasn't had an effect because nothing on the field has changed in the past 5 years, 10 years really, same mistakes, same tactics, same type of players he favour, same lacking mentality, same lacking leadership. How can you blame it on the past couple of years when nothing has changed in far far longer than that?

Also the current trend is for guys like Trusty to blame Kroenke. Here's a hint, again, he takes basically no money out of the club. Owners who want to take the money out of the club.... do, those who don't.... don't. How you can blame Kroenke when the fans have consistently backed Wenger and given the board no reason and no real option to fire Wenger. When the majority of fans are happy with giving Wenger another contract then firing him would be the thing that angered the fans. The fans have lapped this up and made excuse after excuse. Oh, he had less money because of the stadium, oh, his best players have to be sold every year, blah blah blah. None of this is true, we've increased spending every year since the move, Wenger chooses a huge wage budget rather than a huge transfer kitty. Wenger chooses to give players who never play 60-80k a week rather than getting shot of the useless players and spending that money on new players instead. How long did we keep Diaby, or Rosicky around doing next to nothing? The idea that they might magically get over their injuries?

Wenger changed, not Kroenke, not the board's management style, not the finances available to the manager(negatively, that is, the amount Wenger can spend has pretty much tripled at this point and Wenger spends that). Rather than link to articles about what Kroenke has done to other clubs and how other clubs fans hate him... why not actually say specifically what he's done wrong at Arsenal, because pointing to someone else hating him for something he did elsewhere is absolutely not proof that he's doing the same things with Arsenal.

Actually look up our publicly available financial records, look at where the cash is going, look what has happened to the wage bill, look at debt repayments, look at how much cash is in the Arsenal account that wenger refuses to use and that the board do not take money out of(though they are absolutely entitled to do so if they want).

Lastly who cares if the squad can given less games and huge support... win the league, we're paying 70-80% more in wages than Spurs, the entire reason to have a better paid larger squad is to cope with more games. If you have a 190mil a year wage budget and can ONLY compete in one competition, then you're failing. LIkewise if we're focusing too much on europe and not enough on the league, how are the team so damn bad in the round of 16 every year?
Click to expand...

What UK clubs are doing well in Europe at the moment?
Why has Kroenke now stopped the public finance records for the club?


The problem with you're view, DM, is you've wanted Wenger sacked for like 13 years, is it? 12 maybe?

That takes you back to 2005 or something, that's the year Arsenal reached the final of CL, isnt it? How does that make any sense, it's that type of poisonous viewpoint which over the years has infected the whole fan base.

drunkenmaster said:
Lastly who cares if the squad can given less games and huge support... win the league, we're paying 70-80% more in wages than Spurs
Click to expand...

It's proper mad, go support Spurs, why's it ok for every other supporter that's won a title in the last 5/10 years, Chelsea, Utd, City to enjoy that title but not Arsenal because we have higher wages than Spurs? Youre bizzarre
 
Last edited:
As I've said in previous posts, for me the blame is on Wenger. He is the one who picks which players he wants, what they should be getting wage wise and most importantly what tactics he implements when we play.

Of course the board has some part to play as well. But for me it's Wenger that I blame for our demise.

This season our luck in getting that top 4 spot looks to have run out. The players don't look like they give a toss anymore, quite embarrassing as an arsenal fan. It also doesn't help that fans are so divided, I don't like the banners saying Wenger out etc. After everything Wenger has done for us in the past, it's disrespectful to see these banners.

Not sure if a new manager coming in will sort things out but then if we stick with Wenger, I can't see us winning a title anytime soon. You have spurs that are getting better, Chelsea are always strong, city will probably wipe this season off but come back stronger next season. Then there is Liverpool and Utd to an extent that are getting better every season.

Personally we need a new direction, whether it's a new manager or just dumping all the useless players we have at the moment.

This season is pretty much a bust for me, still hoping we don't get top 4 and even europa either. I think we need a season or 2 out of Europe to get ourselves sorted.
 
Yas786 said:
As I've said in previous posts, for me the blame is on Wenger. He is the one who picks which players he wants, what they should be getting wage wise and most importantly what tactics he implements when we play.

Of course the board has some part to play as well. But for me it's Wenger that I blame for our demise.

This season our luck in getting that top 4 spot looks to have run out. The players don't look like they give a toss anymore, quite embarrassing as an arsenal fan. It also doesn't help that fans are so divided, I don't like the banners saying Wenger out etc. After everything Wenger has done for us in the past, it's disrespectful to see these banners.

Not sure if a new manager coming in will sort things out but then if we stick with Wenger, I can't see us winning a title anytime soon. You have spurs that are getting better, Chelsea are always strong, city will probably wipe this season off but come back stronger next season. Then there is Liverpool and Utd to an extent that are getting better every season.

Personally we need a new direction, whether it's a new manager or just dumping all the useless players we have at the moment.

This season is pretty much a bust for me, still hoping we don't get top 4 and even europa either. I think we need a season or 2 out of Europe to get ourselves sorted.
Click to expand...

So you want us to lose top 4 and FA Cup just to get Wenger out? You must hate the guy :p
 
TNA said:
So you want us to lose top 4 and FA Cup just to get Wenger out? You must hate the guy :p
Click to expand...
No I don't hate him at all but can you see anything changing with him being in charge for the next few yrs?? I sure as hell don't, he has no idea on how to deal with teams anymore. His tactics are a joke to say the least, instead of improving from last season...we have went backwards.

Look at the players, they don't seem overly bothered about playing for him anymore.

And please point out to me where I said in my post above, that I want us to lose the FA Cup?? Do you honestly think we will beat Chelsea in the final?? It would be great if we did but at the moment, I don't see it happening unless Chelsea forfeit the game:p. As for CL?? What's the point of being in it if we don't even make a proper go of it?? All it is now for us, is just a payday to line the boards pockets.
 
The higher ticket prices are certainly a source of a lot of problems, but i'd also say, it won't apply to you, Yas, but fans that are spending 30% to 35% of their income on match days have got to take more responsibility, that can't be healthy..
 
Yas786 said:
Do you honestly think we will beat Chelsea in the final??
Click to expand...
I also never thought Leicester would win the league :p

On the day it is possible and I think there is enough of a chance that we will win that I have hope :)

Anyway, I understand what you mean. But I would rather us win the FA Cup and maybe Wenger leaves on a high or something.
 
..of course they can win the FA cup, what defeatist attitude lads. ******* smash em!
 
Trusty said:
What UK clubs are doing well in Europe at the moment?
Why has Kroenke now stopped the public finance records for the club?


The problem with you're view, DM, is you've wanted Wenger sacked for like 13 years, is it? 12 maybe?

That takes you back to 2005 or something, that's the year Arsenal reached the final of CL, isnt it? How does that make any sense, it's that type of poisonous viewpoint which over the years has infected the whole fan base.



It's proper mad, go support Spurs, why's it ok for every other supporter that's won a title in the last 5/10 years, Chelsea, Utd, City to enjoy that title but not Arsenal because we have higher wages than Spurs? Youre bizzarre
Click to expand...


See literally everything in your post is wrong as per usual. Here's a hint, every single premier league team is legally obligated to publish their financial results so your idea that Kroenke is evil and stopped public finance records is complete made up isn't it.

Second, I haven't wanted Wenger sacked for 12 years, THAT is completely made up also. I've said on so many occasions that it is literally impossible to misinterpret(and yet you still have) that something CHANGED around that time, I think the breaking point with Wenger was the 49 game unbeaten run and losing to a damn Rooney dive. Before then, 4-5-1, more defensive, ultra possession based football was never used by Wenger, our style has changed completely since then. IT started slowly, 4-5-1 away to clubs like Utd, slower football, trying to hold possession a bit more. Then it progressed to 4-5-1 at home to such teams, then it progressed to 4-5-1 away to clubs like Stoke, etc, and then eventually 4-4-2 was never used basically ever again by Arsenal. Our ultra fast counter attacking much more direct style was gone forever, our defensive cohesion was gone, our leaders were gone, etc.

We were meh for a few years, and I've said again so many times that no one could possibly get this wrong, that a few years of not doing great, of playing worse football and mistakes happening after what Wenger achieved was, fine isn't the right word, but acceptable and giving him time to get out of his funk and return to winning ways was absolutely the right thing. But by 07/08-08/09, literally no mistakes he was making tactically, with player buying/pushing players out of the club, his refusal to stop giving more money to players who weren't even being used, his obvious 'favourites' being played regardless of form and winners like Gallas being pushed out because they weren't happy with the way things were going. By that point it was clear Wenger didn't want to change, that his mistakes were as a result of stubborn tactics he would never let go of, that his connection to players he felt responsible for like Diaby, was more important than success for the team. The excuses came out, oh the stadium, we had to sell players for the stadium, with stupid fans agreeing all the while our financial records showing as a literal fact that selling RVP, Fabregas, Nasri, whoever, at no point would have come close to putting us in financial danger. We had 18mil of debt payments to make, with 200mil of cash in our account but we HAD to sell Fabregas for 30mil... to cover the 18mil of debt... because the 200mil of cash on hand wasn't enough, nonsense. Wenger was lying every which way about how he was never at fault.

So by 08/09, fed up with the excuses, the flat out lies to the fans when making up those excuses, the way he pushes out the obvious leaders who were questioning him, the way he was keeping the sycophant yes men players around like Walcott, they guys who would never question him and after 3-4 years of significantly worse football and no sign of improvement, that is when I wanted him gone and the point where any other club would have absolutely pushed him out by either a straight firing or letting him see out the season and no offer of a new contract.

Maybe most importantly, at the time I noted the change and said, give it a few years but without a turn around we need a change. Then after a few years I was pointing out which mistakes were still being made with no sign of chance and said, he has to go, he won't change. He's gone 4 years like this, this is how he wants to play, he's wrong and this will never win. Throughout the past 7-8 years all these problems have remained, none have gone away and today they still are the reason he should be gone. I specifically said I wanted him gone because I can't see him changing as after 3-4 years to turn around, he didn't even show a single hint of wanting to do so. I think the last 8 years proved me completely right on this.



I also didn't say I wouldn't enjoy the league title anywhere, you made that up again, I didn't hint at that. I said if a manager can only utilise a 200mil a year squad to compete in one competition then Wenger would still be failing. His job, in the position he's in with the resources at hand that dwarf clubs like Dortmund, Atletico, Leicester and Spurs, has a job in which his targets are to attempt to win the league, the champs league and domestic cups. IF he can only win the league by ignoring the other competitions completely, he's still failing. Literally nothing I said before even hinted that I'd be unhappy with a league win. But if Wenger can only compete for the league by ignoring the other competitions and still can't compete in the CL when that is a target for any club with well over a 150mil wage bill, he's failing and a different manager is required for a club that should absolutely be targeting both competitions. As such, winning the league like that changes nothing, it would still prove we need a new manager.


Every year Wenger stays we spend more money on the wrong players, we lock down some player who isn't remotely good enough to be in this team to a new long term contract. I honestly doubt he can win the league even if he didn't have to be in europe, and the fact that we'll have europa league which realistically should be easier and would probably result in even more games will make that extremely unlikely. We don't have to win leagues, I don't expect a CL win or a league win, I expect a genuine challenge. Wenger compared himself to Real yesterday saying Real have only one a one league in 5 years and LIverpool haven't won for 20 years.... Real haven't been more than 3 points(iirc) off the title since Mourinho was fired for being 15 points behind in his last year. Since then they've lost by 1-2-3 points at most. That means they were in the fight up to the final weekend, they've won league cups against opposition better than Hull and Villa, they've won two CL cups and they are very much capable of winning the CL/league double this year.

Arsenal have in the closest year been 7 points off, but unable to catch from weeks before the end of the season, we've been as far back as 19 points, we've not got anywhere near the CL final since we were actually good. We don't even compete, not genuinely. When Chelsea or Utd haven't competed, their managers got fired, in multiple years Utd, City, CHelsea and even Liverpool, and maybe Spurs this year have finished within 7 points of the title. Liverpool were just 2 points off, Utd finished with the same points as City when they lost, they've actually competed. They've had bad years as well, sure, rebuilding years or Mourinho going mental years. That is fine, that's fine for Arsenal, but it's not fine to be bad every year. Arsenal have more than enough resources to compete MOST years, to not get embarrassed completely in every single CL campaign, to have the OCCASIONAL bad year and to maybe win one of the league or CL every now and then.
 
drunkenmaster said:
See literally everything in your post is wrong as per usual. Here's a hint, every single premier league team is legally obligated to publish their financial results so your idea that Kroenke is evil and stopped public finance records is complete made up isn't it.

Second, I haven't wanted Wenger sacked for 12 years, THAT is completely made up also. I've said on so many occasions that it is literally impossible to misinterpret(and yet you still have) that something CHANGED around that time, I think the breaking point with Wenger was the 49 game unbeaten run and losing to a damn Rooney dive. Before then, 4-5-1, more defensive, ultra possession based football was never used by Wenger, our style has changed completely since then. IT started slowly, 4-5-1 away to clubs like Utd, slower football, trying to hold possession a bit more. Then it progressed to 4-5-1 at home to such teams, then it progressed to 4-5-1 away to clubs like Stoke, etc, and then eventually 4-4-2 was never used basically ever again by Arsenal. Our ultra fast counter attacking much more direct style was gone forever, our defensive cohesion was gone, our leaders were gone, etc.

We were meh for a few years, and I've said again so many times that no one could possibly get this wrong, that a few years of not doing great, of playing worse football and mistakes happening after what Wenger achieved was, fine isn't the right word, but acceptable and giving him time to get out of his funk and return to winning ways was absolutely the right thing. But by 07/08-08/09, literally no mistakes he was making tactically, with player buying/pushing players out of the club, his refusal to stop giving more money to players who weren't even being used, his obvious 'favourites' being played regardless of form and winners like Gallas being pushed out because they weren't happy with the way things were going. By that point it was clear Wenger didn't want to change, that his mistakes were as a result of stubborn tactics he would never let go of, that his connection to players he felt responsible for like Diaby, was more important than success for the team. The excuses came out, oh the stadium, we had to sell players for the stadium, with stupid fans agreeing all the while our financial records showing as a literal fact that selling RVP, Fabregas, Nasri, whoever, at no point would have come close to putting us in financial danger. We had 18mil of debt payments to make, with 200mil of cash in our account but we HAD to sell Fabregas for 30mil... to cover the 18mil of debt... because the 200mil of cash on hand wasn't enough, nonsense. Wenger was lying every which way about how he was never at fault.

So by 08/09, fed up with the excuses, the flat out lies to the fans when making up those excuses, the way he pushes out the obvious leaders who were questioning him, the way he was keeping the sycophant yes men players around like Walcott, they guys who would never question him and after 3-4 years of significantly worse football and no sign of improvement, that is when I wanted him gone and the point where any other club would have absolutely pushed him out by either a straight firing or letting him see out the season and no offer of a new contract.

Maybe most importantly, at the time I noted the change and said, give it a few years but without a turn around we need a change. Then after a few years I was pointing out which mistakes were still being made with no sign of chance and said, he has to go, he won't change. He's gone 4 years like this, this is how he wants to play, he's wrong and this will never win. Throughout the past 7-8 years all these problems have remained, none have gone away and today they still are the reason he should be gone. I specifically said I wanted him gone because I can't see him changing as after 3-4 years to turn around, he didn't even show a single hint of wanting to do so. I think the last 8 years proved me completely right on this.



I also didn't say I wouldn't enjoy the league title anywhere, you made that up again, I didn't hint at that. I said if a manager can only utilise a 200mil a year squad to compete in one competition then Wenger would still be failing. His job, in the position he's in with the resources at hand that dwarf clubs like Dortmund, Atletico, Leicester and Spurs, has a job in which his targets are to attempt to win the league, the champs league and domestic cups. IF he can only win the league by ignoring the other competitions completely, he's still failing. Literally nothing I said before even hinted that I'd be unhappy with a league win. But if Wenger can only compete for the league by ignoring the other competitions and still can't compete in the CL when that is a target for any club with well over a 150mil wage bill, he's failing and a different manager is required for a club that should absolutely be targeting both competitions. As such, winning the league like that changes nothing, it would still prove we need a new manager.


Every year Wenger stays we spend more money on the wrong players, we lock down some player who isn't remotely good enough to be in this team to a new long term contract. I honestly doubt he can win the league even if he didn't have to be in europe, and the fact that we'll have europa league which realistically should be easier and would probably result in even more games will make that extremely unlikely. We don't have to win leagues, I don't expect a CL win or a league win, I expect a genuine challenge. Wenger compared himself to Real yesterday saying Real have only one a one league in 5 years and LIverpool haven't won for 20 years.... Real haven't been more than 3 points(iirc) off the title since Mourinho was fired for being 15 points behind in his last year. Since then they've lost by 1-2-3 points at most. That means they were in the fight up to the final weekend, they've won league cups against opposition better than Hull and Villa, they've won two CL cups and they are very much capable of winning the CL/league double this year.

Arsenal have in the closest year been 7 points off, but unable to catch from weeks before the end of the season, we've been as far back as 19 points, we've not got anywhere near the CL final since we were actually good. We don't even compete, not genuinely. When Chelsea or Utd haven't competed, their managers got fired, in multiple years Utd, City, CHelsea and even Liverpool, and maybe Spurs this year have finished within 7 points of the title. Liverpool were just 2 points off, Utd finished with the same points as City when they lost, they've actually competed. They've had bad years as well, sure, rebuilding years or Mourinho going mental years. That is fine, that's fine for Arsenal, but it's not fine to be bad every year. Arsenal have more than enough resources to compete MOST years, to not get embarrassed completely in every single CL campaign, to have the OCCASIONAL bad year and to maybe win one of the league or CL every now and then.
Click to expand...

I read on Arsenblog the other day that he stopped doing it, maybe i should have done more research but i assumed the blog was correct, it's still deflecting from the point, do you think Kroenke cares about winning trophies? Compared to say, the Arab owners, Russian, Chinese, whichever..

I also asked you about other UK clubs doing well in Europe recently? You haven't explained that.

Are you saying that the move to the Emirates didn't bring an uncertainty to the club? I remember a little while back you went onto say how the banks didn't care whether Wenger was in charge of the club, so long as they got paid. I produced this article regarding that situation to which i never heard back from you. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36172291

You've just mentioned that you were fed up by the 08 season. 2006, Champions league final, 2008, you're fed up, that's 2 years, is it not? What a load of nonsense. You don't have a manager doing an unbeaten season in 2005, nearly winning the CL against Barca with 10 men and then want the manager gone within 24 months, it's mad. If you'd said the last 3/4 years have been the tipping point, i could see that, but what you say makes me think you're not talking any sense. It destroys credibility for me. You just have to look at the larger transfer fees that have been spent in recent years and you're mockery of those players, Sanchez - rubbish, Ozil - rubbish, yet being the german player of the year last year. Every player he's signed recently you've slammed..

Regarding the Spurs comment i made, what position are you coming from if not one of dissatisfaction that Arsenal should be doing it on half the wage bill, i actually don't think you should be able to celebrate if they won it. You can't slam a team at every opportunity to then rejoice in their glories, that's not how human psychology works.

In terms of a ratio between time spent at the club and winning trophies, Wenger is the most successful manager for the club, is he not?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbym...um-ten-years-on-was-it-worth-it/#5f707a86537e

But please, comment on that Forbes article...
 
Last edited:
drunkenmaster said:
See literally everything in your post is wrong as per usual. Here's a hint, every single premier league team is legally obligated to publish their financial results so your idea that Kroenke is evil and stopped public finance records is complete made up isn't it.

Second, I haven't wanted Wenger sacked for 12 years, THAT is completely made up also. I've said on so many occasions that it is literally impossible to misinterpret(and yet you still have) that something CHANGED around that time, I think the breaking point with Wenger was the 49 game unbeaten run and losing to a damn Rooney dive. Before then, 4-5-1, more defensive, ultra possession based football was never used by Wenger, our style has changed completely since then. IT started slowly, 4-5-1 away to clubs like Utd, slower football, trying to hold possession a bit more. Then it progressed to 4-5-1 at home to such teams, then it progressed to 4-5-1 away to clubs like Stoke, etc, and then eventually 4-4-2 was never used basically ever again by Arsenal. Our ultra fast counter attacking much more direct style was gone forever, our defensive cohesion was gone, our leaders were gone, etc.

We were meh for a few years, and I've said again so many times that no one could possibly get this wrong, that a few years of not doing great, of playing worse football and mistakes happening after what Wenger achieved was, fine isn't the right word, but acceptable and giving him time to get out of his funk and return to winning ways was absolutely the right thing. But by 07/08-08/09, literally no mistakes he was making tactically, with player buying/pushing players out of the club, his refusal to stop giving more money to players who weren't even being used, his obvious 'favourites' being played regardless of form and winners like Gallas being pushed out because they weren't happy with the way things were going. By that point it was clear Wenger didn't want to change, that his mistakes were as a result of stubborn tactics he would never let go of, that his connection to players he felt responsible for like Diaby, was more important than success for the team. The excuses came out, oh the stadium, we had to sell players for the stadium, with stupid fans agreeing all the while our financial records showing as a literal fact that selling RVP, Fabregas, Nasri, whoever, at no point would have come close to putting us in financial danger. We had 18mil of debt payments to make, with 200mil of cash in our account but we HAD to sell Fabregas for 30mil... to cover the 18mil of debt... because the 200mil of cash on hand wasn't enough, nonsense. Wenger was lying every which way about how he was never at fault.

So by 08/09, fed up with the excuses, the flat out lies to the fans when making up those excuses, the way he pushes out the obvious leaders who were questioning him, the way he was keeping the sycophant yes men players around like Walcott, they guys who would never question him and after 3-4 years of significantly worse football and no sign of improvement, that is when I wanted him gone and the point where any other club would have absolutely pushed him out by either a straight firing or letting him see out the season and no offer of a new contract.

Maybe most importantly, at the time I noted the change and said, give it a few years but without a turn around we need a change. Then after a few years I was pointing out which mistakes were still being made with no sign of chance and said, he has to go, he won't change. He's gone 4 years like this, this is how he wants to play, he's wrong and this will never win. Throughout the past 7-8 years all these problems have remained, none have gone away and today they still are the reason he should be gone. I specifically said I wanted him gone because I can't see him changing as after 3-4 years to turn around, he didn't even show a single hint of wanting to do so. I think the last 8 years proved me completely right on this.



I also didn't say I wouldn't enjoy the league title anywhere, you made that up again, I didn't hint at that. I said if a manager can only utilise a 200mil a year squad to compete in one competition then Wenger would still be failing. His job, in the position he's in with the resources at hand that dwarf clubs like Dortmund, Atletico, Leicester and Spurs, has a job in which his targets are to attempt to win the league, the champs league and domestic cups. IF he can only win the league by ignoring the other competitions completely, he's still failing. Literally nothing I said before even hinted that I'd be unhappy with a league win. But if Wenger can only compete for the league by ignoring the other competitions and still can't compete in the CL when that is a target for any club with well over a 150mil wage bill, he's failing and a different manager is required for a club that should absolutely be targeting both competitions. As such, winning the league like that changes nothing, it would still prove we need a new manager.


Every year Wenger stays we spend more money on the wrong players, we lock down some player who isn't remotely good enough to be in this team to a new long term contract. I honestly doubt he can win the league even if he didn't have to be in europe, and the fact that we'll have europa league which realistically should be easier and would probably result in even more games will make that extremely unlikely. We don't have to win leagues, I don't expect a CL win or a league win, I expect a genuine challenge. Wenger compared himself to Real yesterday saying Real have only one a one league in 5 years and LIverpool haven't won for 20 years.... Real haven't been more than 3 points(iirc) off the title since Mourinho was fired for being 15 points behind in his last year. Since then they've lost by 1-2-3 points at most. That means they were in the fight up to the final weekend, they've won league cups against opposition better than Hull and Villa, they've won two CL cups and they are very much capable of winning the CL/league double this year.

Arsenal have in the closest year been 7 points off, but unable to catch from weeks before the end of the season, we've been as far back as 19 points, we've not got anywhere near the CL final since we were actually good. We don't even compete, not genuinely. When Chelsea or Utd haven't competed, their managers got fired, in multiple years Utd, City, CHelsea and even Liverpool, and maybe Spurs this year have finished within 7 points of the title. Liverpool were just 2 points off, Utd finished with the same points as City when they lost, they've actually competed. They've had bad years as well, sure, rebuilding years or Mourinho going mental years. That is fine, that's fine for Arsenal, but it's not fine to be bad every year. Arsenal have more than enough resources to compete MOST years, to not get embarrassed completely in every single CL campaign, to have the OCCASIONAL bad year and to maybe win one of the league or CL every now and then.
Click to expand...

And breath... :p

You do make some interesting points though.
 
Trusty said:
I read on Arsenblog the other day that he stopped doing it, maybe i should have done more research but i assumed the blog was correct, it's still deflecting from the point, do you think Kroenke cares about winning trophies? Compared to say, the Arab owners, Russian, Chinese, whichever..

I also asked you about other UK clubs doing well in Europe recently? You haven't explained that.

Are you saying that the move to the Emirates didn't bring an uncertainty to the club? I remember a little while back you went onto say how the banks didn't care whether Wenger was in charge of the club, so long as they got paid. I produced this article regarding that situation to which i never heard back from you. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36172291

You've just mentioned that you were fed up by the 08 season. 2006, Champions league final, 2008, you're fed up, that's 2 years, is it not? What a load of nonsense. You don't have a manager doing an unbeaten season in 2005, nearly winning the CL against Barca with 10 men and then want the manager gone within 24 months, it's mad. If you'd said the last 3/4 years have been the tipping point, i could see that, but what you say makes me think you're not talking any sense. It destroys credibility for me. You just have to look at the larger transfer fees that have been spent in recent years and you're mockery of those players, Sanchez - rubbish, Ozil - rubbish, yet being the german player of the year last year. Every player he's signed recently you've slammed..

Regarding the Spurs comment i made, what position are you coming from if not one of dissatisfaction that Arsenal should be doing it on half the wage bill, i actually don't think you should be able to celebrate if they won it. You can't slam a team at every opportunity to then rejoice in their glories, that's not how human psychology works.

In terms of a ratio between time spent at the club and winning trophies, Wenger is the most successful manager for the club, is he not?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbym...um-ten-years-on-was-it-worth-it/#5f707a86537e

But please, comment on that Forbes article...
Click to expand...


If Kroenke cares about winning trophies or not doesn't matter. Wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you will and not wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you won't. He doesn't take cash out of the club and doesn't get involved in the day to day. Wenger chooses how to spend his money. Basically you're whining that we don't have a mega rich owner willing to make a massive loss to chase a title, that incidentally would be difficult to achieve under FFP now anyway... boo hoo. The vast majority of the money PSG, City, Chelsea have spent..... was wasted, assuming that because club spent eleventy billion to win a title means you also do... is nothing short of stupid. Look at the player turnover, the massive losses and players who barely played yet sometimes cost 30+mil for a handful of performances. Handing out big wages to substandard players, SWP was ****, yet two clubs wasted a fortune on him in transfer fees and wages, had zero impact on winning titles.

As for UK clubs doing well in europe... again, you have to ask the relevance. The clubs that fail but have a budget to compete fire their managers when they can't compete, this is a point that works against you not for you. But if you want to get into it, Chelsea won the europa league in 12/13, they won the Champs league in 11/12, the got to the semi finals in 13/14, they got to the first knock out stage in 14/15, but won the league, narrowly losing to PSG, not being thrashed embarrassingly, they went out in 15/16 in the same way, a narrow loss at the same stage to the same team and that was in another year a manager was fired for insane under performance, even in a year Mourinho absolutely ruined Chelsea in the league they still put in a better performance in the champs league.

The BBC article, you may have noted where it says.... Wenger CLAIMS that, which you now hold to be truth. Wenger has lied a lot making up excuses. I genuinely don't believe this happened, if it was said to him it's most likely someone doing some hand holding trying to make Wenger feel important at a time he was getting interest elsewhere, don't forget that in 2003 he was doing great and if the club could manipulate him into signing a 5 year contract when Real and other teams were sniffing around why wouldn't they.

The reality is in 2003 banks were handing out money like candy, a construction project that is short term and has serious financial payback is not a risk at all. If Wenger got fired, if we went down to the championship... Arsenal would still have fans and Arsenal would still easily fill out even half the stadium. Look at match day, 57mil at highbury, that was beaten solely by Utd in the EPL and one of the highest across europe(it may well be the second highest in europe as well as ticket prices are generally way cheaper in the other leagues). It doubled, literally doubled by moving stadium... and our debt repayments are sub £20mil a year... but we went from about £50mil to £100mil overnight. We could afford the debt repayments even if attendance dropped by half... which it wouldn't. There is absolutely no way in hell, like none, that the bank would turn down an easy 50-100mil profit in a couple of years because Wenger might leave. This was freaking easy money for the banks and most importantly the plan was always to turn the short term bank debt into long term bonds, meaning the banks were always going to paid back a couple years max after the move anyway, meaning any actual longer term risk of relegation and the attendance dropping into lets say the 15k or below range that might threaten the club financially, had zero chance of happening before they got paid back.

Again you seem to be purposefully ignoring the point on the league being won. It's simple, you have a club with a 200mil wage budget, your job as manager is to compete in all competitions. If you require not competing in any other competition to just win the league.... you are failing in your job targets and need replacing anyway. I honestly can't even see how you can not understand this, it's incredibly simple.

If you take over Hull, with a small budget and specifically with like 4 players or whatever they had in preseason, your target is not to compete in the champs league and the league and the cup, in fact it's not to win any competition, your job is to if you can stay up and if not push for promotion from the championship next year. You don't fail by even getting relegated. In that scenario you fail if you get relegated, then do terribly in the championship. Wenger's job description at a club with the finances we have is to genuinely compete in all competitions. If he can only compete in a single competition by ignoring all other competitions he is not doing his job and should leave for a manager who can take a club with Arsenal's resources and compete in the CL and the league.

What comment on that forbes article, it doesn't say much interesting, it says what I say, that we've had couple hundred million in the bank, the debt from the stadium started at $387mil and as of last season the debt stood at $302million...... are you reading something different? Net debt means little, in another 10 years we could have $700million in the cash account, $150mil of debt and a positive cash flow of $550mil?

Net debt hitting zero isn't anything, it's meaningless, we're paying off around 18mil a year, every year for a long time to come and since the stadium move. Cash is a completely separate matter and the problem, we have the cash, it's not taken out of the club, Wenger won't use it. We need 18mil a year for stadium debt repayments to 2031, it's always been that amount, it will continue to always be that amount, there is really no benefit to paying it all off early, you hurt yourself refusing to spend till you pay it off early, you probably pay a huge penalty for paying off early and then you get... 18mil a year extra to spend, woo. WE moved stadium, increased profits by £50mil, pay a small amount each year to debt repayment, we've been £31-32mil better off every year since the move and will be till 2031 when we'll be £50mil better off per year.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom