Arsenal FC - A complete shambles. What needs to change? *Please read OP before posting*

Status
Not open for further replies.
drunkenmaster said:
If Kroenke cares about winning trophies or not doesn't matter. Wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you will and not wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you won't.
Click to expand...

This is where I disagree, the owners ambition is a huge factor in club development as it has a huge bearing on the decisions he will make. A less ambitious owner who is content with a Top 4 finish is more likely to keep Wenger in a job than Abramovic who would have fired him 6 times over by now as he is hungry for success. I can't comprehend how you feel an owners apetite does not factor in the conversation?

I'm not laying all the blame at the fault of the owner, I genuinely think that Arsene has made some mistakes in recent years, he has lost that spark and at this point is unwilling or unable to make the changes that are needed, but I think you're too quick to lay all the blame on Wenger and instead appreciate there are a number of contributing factors.
 
drunkenmaster said:
You realise he controls who are scouts are, who we choose to buy, who we choose to keep and where we spend our money? As for the rest, we have a wage bill not far off Chelsea/Utd/City in general. This year looks like it's about 110mil wage bill for Spurs, 190ish for Arsenal, ~200 for Chelsea, 220mil for Utd. Utd were closer to us but unsurprisingly a few years of buying heavily means a lot of players on bigger money.

Arsenal have the tools, Wenger chooses not to spend, we have around 200mil cash in the bank, we've spent a fair amount in recent years and some of our lack of cash comes from not making it to later stages of the CL, not being competitive enough to get equal level sponsorship deals, etc.

If Wenger didn't have the tools then how are Spurs second right now and how did Leicester win last year? We have literally 3 times the revenue, wage bill and cash available to spend as Leicester yet lost to them by 10 freaking points. To say we don't have the tools is laughable.

As for Ozil, we should get shot, he's goes missing in big games yet wants a massive pay increase from an already large wage. Those kinds of wages spent on a guy who doesn't show up in the big games is how Arsenal are the team they are. Sanchez, very good player but still very much over rated, he's had so many poor games this year and the majority of his goals have come against really weak teams. He's also been poor in the bigger games but it gets overlooked because he's the attacking player who gets most of the ball and does the least badly by far in the big games.

I'd happily keep Sanchez even on increased wages, but not as a central striker as he basically sucks in that role. Ozil should absolutely go, he will never be good value for money, he's never going to get better, he's at an age where it's basically only downhill and he already isn't good enough for the wage he has. Cash in on him this summer for someone who believes it's Arsenal holding him back rather than just himself and then we can laugh as we spend say 30mil we get for him on a younger hungrier player with the right mentality while he goes to wherever he goes and people question his continued disappearances in the bigger games.
Click to expand...

I have to say Spurs have the better team, Leicester was just godlike act (Vardy, Schmeichel, Mahrez, Kante) look at how Chelsea went that year. If the board wanted to they could force Wenger to have the players they want to get in and if he declines release him from the job, the Arsenal team keeps getting weaker every year and I struggle to believe it is all Wenger's fault, not being in the UCL is going to make getting another manager harder and players too.
 
drunkenmaster said:
If Kroenke cares about winning trophies or not doesn't matter. Wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you will and not wanting to win a trophy doesn't mean you won't. He doesn't take cash out of the club and doesn't get involved in the day to day. Wenger chooses how to spend his money. Basically you're whining that we don't have a mega rich owner willing to make a massive loss to chase a title, that incidentally would be difficult to achieve under FFP now anyway... boo hoo. The vast majority of the money PSG, City, Chelsea have spent..... was wasted, assuming that because club spent eleventy billion to win a title means you also do... is nothing short of stupid. Look at the player turnover, the massive losses and players who barely played yet sometimes cost 30+mil for a handful of performances. Handing out big wages to substandard players, SWP was ****, yet two clubs wasted a fortune on him in transfer fees and wages, had zero impact on winning titles.

As for UK clubs doing well in europe... again, you have to ask the relevance. The clubs that fail but have a budget to compete fire their managers when they can't compete, this is a point that works against you not for you. But if you want to get into it, Chelsea won the europa league in 12/13, they won the Champs league in 11/12, the got to the semi finals in 13/14, they got to the first knock out stage in 14/15, but won the league, narrowly losing to PSG, not being thrashed embarrassingly, they went out in 15/16 in the same way, a narrow loss at the same stage to the same team and that was in another year a manager was fired for insane under performance, even in a year Mourinho absolutely ruined Chelsea in the league they still put in a better performance in the champs league.

The BBC article, you may have noted where it says.... Wenger CLAIMS that, which you now hold to be truth. Wenger has lied a lot making up excuses. I genuinely don't believe this happened, if it was said to him it's most likely someone doing some hand holding trying to make Wenger feel important at a time he was getting interest elsewhere, don't forget that in 2003 he was doing great and if the club could manipulate him into signing a 5 year contract when Real and other teams were sniffing around why wouldn't they.

The reality is in 2003 banks were handing out money like candy, a construction project that is short term and has serious financial payback is not a risk at all. If Wenger got fired, if we went down to the championship... Arsenal would still have fans and Arsenal would still easily fill out even half the stadium. Look at match day, 57mil at highbury, that was beaten solely by Utd in the EPL and one of the highest across europe(it may well be the second highest in europe as well as ticket prices are generally way cheaper in the other leagues). It doubled, literally doubled by moving stadium... and our debt repayments are sub £20mil a year... but we went from about £50mil to £100mil overnight. We could afford the debt repayments even if attendance dropped by half... which it wouldn't. There is absolutely no way in hell, like none, that the bank would turn down an easy 50-100mil profit in a couple of years because Wenger might leave. This was freaking easy money for the banks and most importantly the plan was always to turn the short term bank debt into long term bonds, meaning the banks were always going to paid back a couple years max after the move anyway, meaning any actual longer term risk of relegation and the attendance dropping into lets say the 15k or below range that might threaten the club financially, had zero chance of happening before they got paid back.

Again you seem to be purposefully ignoring the point on the league being won. It's simple, you have a club with a 200mil wage budget, your job as manager is to compete in all competitions. If you require not competing in any other competition to just win the league.... you are failing in your job targets and need replacing anyway. I honestly can't even see how you can not understand this, it's incredibly simple.

If you take over Hull, with a small budget and specifically with like 4 players or whatever they had in preseason, your target is not to compete in the champs league and the league and the cup, in fact it's not to win any competition, your job is to if you can stay up and if not push for promotion from the championship next year. You don't fail by even getting relegated. In that scenario you fail if you get relegated, then do terribly in the championship. Wenger's job description at a club with the finances we have is to genuinely compete in all competitions. If he can only compete in a single competition by ignoring all other competitions he is not doing his job and should leave for a manager who can take a club with Arsenal's resources and compete in the CL and the league.

What comment on that forbes article, it doesn't say much interesting, it says what I say, that we've had couple hundred million in the bank, the debt from the stadium started at $387mil and as of last season the debt stood at $302million...... are you reading something different? Net debt means little, in another 10 years we could have $700million in the cash account, $150mil of debt and a positive cash flow of $550mil?

Net debt hitting zero isn't anything, it's meaningless, we're paying off around 18mil a year, every year for a long time to come and since the stadium move. Cash is a completely separate matter and the problem, we have the cash, it's not taken out of the club, Wenger won't use it. We need 18mil a year for stadium debt repayments to 2031, it's always been that amount, it will continue to always be that amount, there is really no benefit to paying it all off early, you hurt yourself refusing to spend till you pay it off early, you probably pay a huge penalty for paying off early and then you get... 18mil a year extra to spend, woo. WE moved stadium, increased profits by £50mil, pay a small amount each year to debt repayment, we've been £31-32mil better off every year since the move and will be till 2031 when we'll be £50mil better off per year.
Click to expand...

This is why i can't take your view seriously, you state the owner has no impact on where a club goes, it starts from the top, much like any other business, ambition is everything. Depending on how much ambition you have dictates where you find yourself.

What do you mean the Forbes article is basically saying what you're saying? I don't get it, it's saying the opposite, it's saying amongst a hurricane, he's managed to stable the ship.

Yes, that is my piddly reply, and i'm proud of it...
 
Trusty said:
The higher ticket prices are certainly a source of a lot of problems, but i'd also say, it won't apply to you, Yas, but fans that are spending 30% to 35% of their income on match days have got to take more responsibility, that can't be healthy..
Click to expand...

It's a problem because teams that are winning titles ie city, Chelsea and Leicester. They do not rip their loyal fans off with stupidly high prices for season or match day tickets. I could understand somewhat if we were winning titles and trophies but at the moment we aren't.

I've spent thousands of pounds going to arsenal games in the past. The past 2 yrs I've decided to vote with my wallet and not allow myself to pay silly money for tickets, when the team that I love is not challenging for titles.

TNA said:
I also never thought Leicester would win the league :p

On the day it is possible and I think there is enough of a chance that we will win that I have hope :)

Anyway, I understand what you mean. But I would rather us win the FA Cup and maybe Wenger leaves on a high or something.
Click to expand...

I would love it, absolutely love it if we beat Chelsea to win the fa cup and Wenger leaves on a high. But with the way we have been playing, I'm not overly optimistic about the game.

But who knows, on the day we may just do the job.
 
Yas786 said:
It's a problem because teams that are winning titles ie city, Chelsea and Leicester. They do not rip their loyal fans off with stupidly high prices for season or match day tickets. I could understand somewhat if we were winning titles and trophies but at the moment we aren't.

I've spent thousands of pounds going to arsenal games in the past. The past 2 yrs I've decided to vote with my wallet and not allow myself to pay silly money for tickets, when the team that I love is not challenging for titles.



I would love it, absolutely love it if we beat Chelsea to win the fa cup and Wenger leaves on a high. But with the way we have been playing, I'm not overly optimistic about the game.

But who knows, on the day we may just do the job.
Click to expand...

We've turned in to a bit of an old school Liverpool. Poor in the league but turn up for the cups.

The other big question is when are they going to announce what Wenger's contract situation is? Has he signed or not?
 
BaZ87 said:
they still haven't fixed any of their weaknesses
Click to expand...

I think the signing of Cech fixed a weakness (resting him for CL group games notwithstanding) but overall yes there are several areas that haven't been addressed, namely:
-Replacement of Vieira
-Getting the best out of forward players (e.g. forcing the likes of Arshavin and Podolski to play out wide)
-General lack of physicality and perceived vulnerability on set pieces
-Ability to shut a game down for a short period e.g. after a goal is scored
-Persistence with some mediocre players rather than giving younger players an opportunity
-Excessive wages spent on fringe players

opethdisciple said:
We've turned in to a bit of an old school Liverpool. Poor in the league but turn up for the cups
Click to expand...
I think, depending on what happens over the next couple of years, there is a risk of Arsenal having further similarities in terms of having a chip on their shoulder about being better than what they are. The "new normal" for Arsenal may need to become not competing for the League/CL, but rather a battle for European qualification. The club now have a large fanbase of young/foreign supporters who have only ever seen the Wenger era and will struggle getting their heads round the idea of becoming another alsoran, the idea that they will not and should not be realistically competing for the title, that finishing 5th or 6th will actually become an 'average' season. My expectations have been set for a couple of years now that I do not consider us to be in the same calibre as Chelsea and MC, or in other words that a 3rd place finish is a success.
 
It's a weird situation as I am sure if Wenger left at the end of the season the likes of Real etc would all be in for him. At Arsenal it's just gone flat.

I'd like to see something new next season but for the right reasons. When you listen to the fans on some of the social media sites, I'm not quite sure what it is they want. They say they don't expect us to win the league but actually when you read between the lines they do. I think this is the wrong reason. Irrespective of the the new stadium and what Gazidis said, we still can't compete with Chelsea, Man City and Man Utd for fee's and wages. It's not realistic. I think this is where Wenger has got it right in the past. The realistic expectation should be top 4. We could win the league, but it shouldn't be the reason he leaves if we don't.

I think the current squad is capable of more than we are currently seeing and we are still more of a top 4 team than Spurs and Liverpool regardless of this one season. The lack of confidence is chronic though at the moment.

So change for the right reasons. If someone like Allegri is available and he has a new team ready to come in with a plan and hit the ground running then great. If not then stick with the stability we have until the right team is available.
 
The current squad is capable of more than they are producing, Wenger can't get more out of them. No players improve under him any more and haven't for a very long time. Can't compete with the other teams, you should really look up how narrow the wage gap actually is between us and those other teams you mention. The biggest gap is now I believe Utd thanks in part to giving Ibra a huge wage, a 90mil deal that came with huge wages and so many players bought in the past three years. Though with Rooney and Ibra off the books(if Rooney is sold over summer) that will be seemingly around 30mil of wages off the books right there.

In terms of can we compete, Utd, City, have so much waste in the squad. New manager after new manager coming in with a war chest and a bunch of buys, of which probably half are rubbish and don't work out? This is managers who take over and have a month or two to decide who to buy, make mistakes, misjudge the players they have and half way through the year a couple of the new guys are benched and a couple of the guys who were already there prove themselves to the new manager. Take out all the wasteful spending from Chelsea/City/Utd and well, there is no need for us to spend as much to be as good. Wenger is the literally only manager anywhere near a top team who has had complete control, can have years to plan, scout, choose and secure the transfers he wants. Literally any manager in his position should spend dramatically less than someone who takes over and tries to implement change on the team in the first 3-4 transfer windows.

As for winning, nope, what I want is competing. Every single year, even if we're top by xmas I know, literally know that we'll **** it up, and hard, and end up 10+ points off the top. But that means that 5 game winning streak which includes a freak win at Chelsea in the first half of the season next year with Wenger... I know it won't matter, I know we won't maintain it, I don't get to enjoy it. I know this Wenger team will flop, I know it's inevitable so I know the wins are meaningless. even if we make top four, I know we'll go out against the first half decent side we face embarrassingly. With a new manager, the weak players gone then those same 5 wins and the same situation I can actually enjoy because hey, we might actually win the title, and if we miss out by 3 points at the end it was a real fight, and we qualified for the CL and as such.. maybe we'll win it or maybe we'll go out with a narrow loss in the first knock out stage or the semi finals. The utter predictability of Arsenal, their yearly flop, their weak mentality and their embarrassing CL exit taints every other moment of the year.

On actual results, I don't expect top four, football isn't like that. Chelsea have been yo-yoing the last few years up and down. Win the CL, do meh in the league, win the europa, meh in the league, do well in the league, meh in europe, win the league with no europe, then suck hard the next year, then win the title the following year. Teams have good and bad years, that means some years teams with less finances have a great run(Leicester, Spurs, Atletico, Dortmund) and some years you have terrible years, (Dortmund, Leicester, Newcastle in terms of teams with less money, Utd, Chelsea are teams with huge money that had it happen). So... Arsenal should have good and bad years, good where they end up winning or at least genuinely competing for the title, losing it in the final game or two and maybe being within 4 points and other years maybe we come 6th... so what.

Any team is capable of that, except Arsenal, there is literally proof of this in every single league in every single season. Leicester and Newcastle being cases of teams that have finished way way beyond their 'means', Atletico and Dortmund in their respective leagues beating even bigger teams with far far bigger wage and transfer budget difference. Arsenal haven't had a 'good' year in so long it's pathetic, because even when the form is there, other teams are having a bad year and everything is going right... we don't have the will to take advantage.
 
Well just reading today that:

A) Wenger is saying there will be no Director of football whilst he is Manager. Which to me sounds like a passive aggressive threat to the board.

B) We are going to miss out on Kolasinac to City.

Bit of a spiral really, being poor ths season and missing out on the Champions League will mean we can only attract lesser calibre players. And so the spiral will continue.
 
opethdisciple said:
Well just reading today that:

A) Wenger is saying there will be no Director of football whilst he is Manager. Which to me sounds like a passive aggressive threat to the board.
Click to expand...

Just sounds like he doesn't believe in the concept of director of football to me. Nothing passive about it, or aggressive for that matter. What other words should he have used to voice that opinion?
 
I got the impression there is some sort of impasse between Wenger and the board. The board want to change the structure of the club. Hence why they thought a director of football was the way forward. But Wenger is basically saying that if you go and appoint a director of football then he will leave. There is only one director at this club and that is him.

Also results matter. To some degree finish in or out of the top four will have an effect on the Wenger's contract situation.

Hence what I meant by passive aggressive.
 
If Wenger leaves, Arsenal will hire someone like Koeman and become what Tottenham were for the last decade. Mediocre.

Then Arsenal fans will be crying and begging Wenger to return. It'll be Ferguson / Moyes all over again.

I agree with Wenger that the director of football position is redundant if you have the right manager, and there's nothing wrong with him voicing that opinion as manager of the club.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom