Asking someone where they are from

[Jono8]

But she didn't have an English name and she was dressed up in a particular way... Even so white British people get asked where they're from.



So it's just projection then... it's clear she wasn't talking about citizenship so that implication is just false. Obviously, anyone of any race/ethnicity can be British. They're not necessarily indigenous British though (potentially partially if mixed race) thus the question of where her people are from or rather what her heritage was.

"projection" - *ticks bingo card

"indigenous British" - How do you define that?

 

[danlightbulb]

I doubt she would have continued the conversation to that point with someone who was white. Even if there were in African clothes and answered her in normal English, that they were born in the UK. I think that would have been the end of it.

If the above is true then there was racist intent and SH is implicitly racist. I'll accept that argument. There is no middle ground, if SH would only ask black people the question then she is racist. If not then she isn't.

I think you are misunderstanding the argument again.

If it was with a white person, with an "English" name (whatever that means these days), that conversation absolutely 100% would not have happened. I guarantee you that.

There isn't the evidence to gaurantee that Jono, it's your view. See my response above to Craterloads. If this is true, SH is implicitly racist, there is no middle ground. But we need to prove it.

Saying "where are you really from" implies heavily that she cannot be from the UK or British and that she actually is from somewhere else.

Saying "Your people" implies that her people cannot be British or come from the UK.

The racism is the implication that because she is black and has an african sounding name, she cannot be really British.

However factually it's true, NF heritage is not British. African names do not originate from Britain. If SH was simply trying to determine heritage (in a rude way I accept) then the conversation makes sense. In this case it's not racist.

 

[dowie]

I'm sorry but i completely disagree.

You might but it's a weak argument, even if the transcript is 100% accurate then your racism argument rests on some flawed implication claim.

But as was pointed out near the start of the thread a multi-line recollection from memory is unlikely to be all that accurate anyway and that's before we even consider that she's clearly a grifter who has openly lied immediately after this incident and has previously made hyperbolic accusations towards the Royals too.

 

[dowie]

"projection" - *ticks bingo card

"indigenous British" - How do you define that?

Quite easily given the population of these islands were mostly unchanged for nearly 1000 years.

 

[Jono8]

You might but it's a weak argument,

No it isn't. It is THE argument.

 

[Craterloads]

If the above is true then there was racist intent and SH is implicitly racist. I'll accept that argument. There is no middle ground, if SH would only ask black people the question then she is racist. If not then she isn't.

Doesn't have to be racist intent. Could just be ignorance, no?

 

[Jono8]

However factually it's true, NF heritage is not British. African names do not originate from Britain. If SH was simply trying to determine heritage (in a rude way I accept) then the conversation makes sense. In this case it's not racist.

But again you are misconstruing the argument.

I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said it was racist to enquire into someone's heritage. If Sh was simply trying to determine this, she could have just asked "what is your heritage?".

The major issues are the "really from" and "your people" phrases.

 

[dowie]

No it isn't. It is THE argument.

Eh? No one said it wasn't an "argument" Jono, or "THE" argument LOL

Do you not understand why it's an incredibly weak argument, it's flawed enough even if the "transcript" were from an actual recording let alone it being a recollection from memory by an untrustworthy source!

 

[dowie]

I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said it was racist to enquire into someone's heritage. If Sh was simply trying to determine this, she could have just asked "what is your heritage?".

The major issues are the "really from" and "your people" phrases.

Which are again ridiculous things to focus on, that's all it's come down to, some nonsense about semantics when you don't even know for sure the exact phrasing used.

 

[NVP]

My personal take is that repeatedly questioning someone with questions like "no, where are you really from?" is potentially rude, as the specific language can imply the original answer was a lie or that person is being evasive. If the underlying reason for not accepting the original answer is rooted in the fact the person is black, it enters the realms of potentially being racist.

And this is the crux of the matter. You assume her choice of wording implies denial, however you do know what answer she was seeking. So to assume she was asking heritage but also assume she was being racist is a non-starter.

Either you knew what she was asking or you thought she was being racist. I think the majority of the public know what she was asking.

 

[Jono8]

Eh? No one said it wasn't an "argument" Jono, or "THE" argument LOL

Do you not understand why it's an incredibly weak argument, it's flawed enough even if the "transcript" were from an actual recording let alone it being a recollection from memory by an untrustworthy source!

If you don't trust the source or believe that the transcript is true, why are you even bothering to debate it?

If that isnt true, then we can never know whether the conversation was racist or not.

 

[dowie]

If you don't trust the source or believe that the transcript is true, why are you even bothering to debate it?

I'm mostly not, my arguments hold up regardless of whether the transcript is accurate or not.

 

[Jono8]

my arguments hold up

Well, at least you have self confidence.

 

[Jono8]

Which are again ridiculous things to focus on

It is the only thing to focus on in discussing whether the words used by SH were racist or not.

 

[danlightbulb]

Doesn't have to be racist intent. Could just be ignorance, no?

Could be ignorance yes but in my mind a person is either racist or isn't, there is no half position. The cause of that racism could be ignorance.

But again you are misconstruing the argument.

I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said it was racist to enquire into someone's heritage. If Sh was simply trying to determine this, she could have just asked "what is your heritage?".

The major issues are the "really from" and "your people" phrases.

Do you accept it could have been accidental / poor choice of words and that there could have been no racist intent there at all?

Or in your view is the use of this one set of words enough to seal the deal on it?

The problem is that we don't know if her using the phrase 'your people' was meant in a derogatory way or not. You think it does sound derogatory, others don't. How do we settle it one way or the other?

It can't be down to interpretation, particularly of a recipient who may be biased.

 

[dowie]

It is the only thing to focus on in discussing whether the words used by SH were racist or not.

Exactly! Thus your argument is based on really shaky ground.

 

[Jono8]

Exactly! Thus your argument is based on really shaky ground.

Well, beyond that, there is nothing even to discuss!
If we exclude the words she used, what debate is there even to have?

 

[dowie]

Well, beyond that, there is nothing even to discuss!
If we exclude the words she used, what debate is there even to have?

There isn't that's the point! As I already pointed out a while back the gist of it is that she was asked about her heritage (in context we can easily see why that it) there was some sort of back and forth and she's run to Twitter and created drama.

It's a total BS story about some trivial interaction that got a bit hostile and it's blown up into a silly race row.

 

[Lysander]

Morning everyone! Guys, go and do something else with your Saturday, go and look at some ducks or something.

 

[Jono8]

Do you accept it could have been accidental / poor choice of words and that there could have been no racist intent there at all?

Or in your view is the use of this one set of words enough to seal the deal on it?

The problem is that we don't know if her using the phrase 'your people' was meant in a derogatory way or not. You think it does sound derogatory, others don't. How do we settle it one way or the other?

I think in the context of the conversation it was derogatory, as she had already answered that she was British and from the UK.

To then ask where she was "really" from and where "your people" are from is essentially saying that she was not correct.

I'm bemused as to how people cannot see that. She was asked where she was from, and answered. She was then asked where she was "really" from. That just completely implies that she cannot be from Britain in SH's eyes.

It is racist thing to say, but i don't know whether SH is an overtly racist person. Potentially i think she clearly thinks in old fashioned ways and cannot understand that someone who is black and who has an african sounding name can be from Britain.